Guardian at it again...

#3
Wrong, yes.
Immoral, yes.
Illegal, yes.
Defencible, in today's society, no. In the post war period, possibly justifiable. You must recall that the relationship that we enjoyed with the then USSR was not the wonderful, trusting and open one we enjoy today with the former consitiuent nations.
Actually, theres a chunky dissertation waiting on this subject - in addition to all the others that are gathering dust on library shelves, but I can't be arsed to write. Precis: it was wrong but understandable. We wouldn't do it again (and be so stupid as to keep the records. Did we learn nothing from the Nazis?).
 
#4
Nearly caught me there Sergey - I assumed these were from someone's Gulag album until I followed the link. See, your erstwhile masters were not unique in their field of speciality.
 
#5
OldRedCap said:
Nearly caught me there Sergey - I assumed these were from someone's Gulag album until I followed the link. See, your erstwhile masters were not unique in their field of speciality.
OldRedCap!

I haven't seen similar photos taken in Soviet GULAG. Maybe they exist, maybe no... Who knows?
 
#7
KGB_resident said:
Is there a Law that could be used to close anti-British newspapers?
I hope not, it would be one more step on the road to a totalitarian state. Where we would enjoy none of the freedoms we take for granted. So if the price of free speech is the Guardian bringing up stories like this, then it is the price we must pay. A price infinitely more preferable to bloodspilt in defence of free speech and democracy.
 
#8
I'm sure that it is only the UK that has ever done anything like this.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
#9
This was an artifact of the time. The British Army of the time was a significantly less sentimental organisation and a generally much more robust line was taken on a number of things, including internal discipline. This sort of operation would be completely impossible to carry out nowadays, not least because it would be much more difficult to keep it secret.

That doesn't make it right, but in the context of the time it took place, it was considerably less wrong then than it would be now.
 
#10
OldRedCap said:
Sometimes Sergey, your answers read uncannily like they are being generated by a speaking bot. Your turn now.....
You are right. Indeed it looks like this. But the reason is a simple one - I haven't enough information. You thought that the photos were taken from the GULAG. But why? Have you seen similar photos taken from Soviet GULAG previously? I doubt, because in this case I myself had to see them. So I repeat my question - why? Maybe because you are under influence of the streotypes created during the Cold war. Probably yes. Nothing wrong with it. I was (and likely are) under influence of other stereotypes.

My streotype - the West tries to expose itself as an example of democracy, respect for human rights, freedom of speech while real situation is too far from ideal. Soviet propaganda was so skilled in implementing of this stereotype that my 'trained brains' are quick to find anything that supports this vision inside huge stream of news. What can I do in this situation. I fear that I haven't good options.
 
#11
KGB_resident said:
OldRedCap said:
Sometimes Sergey, your answers read uncannily like they are being generated by a speaking bot. Your turn now.....
You are right. Indeed it looks like this. But the reason is a simple one - I haven't enough information. You thought that the photos were taken from the GULAG. But why? Have you seen similar photos taken from Soviet GULAG previously? I doubt, because in this case I myself had to see them. So I repeat my question - why? Maybe because you are under influence of the streotypes created during the Cold war. Probably yes. Nothing wrong with it. I was (and likely are) under influence of other stereotypes.

My streotype - the West tries to expose itself as an example of democracy, respect for human rights, freedom of speech while real situation is too far from ideal. Soviet propaganda was so skilled in implementing of this stereotype that my 'trained brains' are quick to find anything that supports this vision inside huge stream of news. What can I do in this situation. I fear that I haven't good options.
Lets be honest here KGB-R, there maybe no pictures of the Gulags but there is enough evidence to support this from testaments from former prisoners.

As stated the Allies expected to have an immediate war against the USSR and this was part of the run up, mind it was 1945/6 and we didn't have the PC crap of today or the Human Rights charter. Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the USSR keep some British troops as prisoners for some months post war rather than repatriate them??
 
#12
A little perspective, gentlemen please. This was the post war period where a very hardened attitude was ingrained and having experienced a second world war in less than 50 years the prospect of another with the USSR would make anyone paranoid. Too easy to judge them today besides there were many features of 40's and 50's Britain that would be unacceptable today such a hanging people. Do we turn around now and demand families of those hanged receive an apology and compensation. Why stop there? How about our nasty treatment of women suspected of being witches in the last 1,000 years?

Are we going to be issuing public apologies in 50 years time for people being alowed to drink in public today only for it to be banned in the future?

Live for the now and don't try and live the past.
 
#13
dui-lai said:
KGB_resident said:
OldRedCap said:
Sometimes Sergey, your answers read uncannily like they are being generated by a speaking bot. Your turn now.....
You are right. Indeed it looks like this. But the reason is a simple one - I haven't enough information. You thought that the photos were taken from the GULAG. But why? Have you seen similar photos taken from Soviet GULAG previously? I doubt, because in this case I myself had to see them. So I repeat my question - why? Maybe because you are under influence of the streotypes created during the Cold war. Probably yes. Nothing wrong with it. I was (and likely are) under influence of other stereotypes.

My streotype - the West tries to expose itself as an example of democracy, respect for human rights, freedom of speech while real situation is too far from ideal. Soviet propaganda was so skilled in implementing of this stereotype that my 'trained brains' are quick to find anything that supports this vision inside huge stream of news. What can I do in this situation. I fear that I haven't good options.
Lets be honest here KGB-R, there maybe no pictures of the Gulags but there is enough evidence to support this from testaments from former prisoners.
OK. What are these evidences exactly? Has anyone said that GULAG prisoners were starved to death? Without concrete data any discussion would be pointless.

dui-lai said:
As stated the Allies expected to have an immediate war against the USSR and this was part of the run up, mind it was 1945/6 and we didn't have the PC crap of today or the Human Rights charter.
Extrapolation of you argument could lead to justification of existence of German concentration camps. If it was right for the UK to do something then why Germany hadn't right for it?

dui-lai said:
Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the USSR keep some British troops as prisoners for some months post war rather than repatriate them??
I'm unaware about even one such case. If true then no doubt British parliament held this question. It would be very kind of you to find any discussion on the matter on

www.parliament.uk
 
#14
Birdie_Numnums said:
A little perspective, gentlemen please. This was the post war period where a very hardened attitude was ingrained and having experienced a second world war in less than 50 years the prospect of another with the USSR would make anyone paranoid. Too easy to judge them today besides there were many features of 40's and 50's Britain that would be unacceptable today such a hanging people. Do we turn around now and demand families of those hanged receive an apology and compensation. Why stop there? How about our nasty treatment of women suspected of being witches in the last 1,000 years?

Are we going to be issuing public apologies in 50 years time for people being alowed to drink in public today only for it to be banned in the future?

Live for the now and don't try and live the past.
Couldn't agree more. However these photos could be published 10, 20 and maybe 30 years ago. It was impossible? But why?
 
#15
KGB_resident said:
OldRedCap said:
Nearly caught me there Sergey - I assumed these were from someone's Gulag album until I followed the link. See, your erstwhile masters were not unique in their field of speciality.
OldRedCap!

I haven't seen similar photos taken in Soviet GULAG. Maybe they exist, maybe no... Who knows?
I suspect all evidence including the victims lies under a metre of perma frost somewhere in Siberia.
 
#16
Not everybody got sent to Gulags. Some Nazi concentration camps were put "under new management".

Instead of destroying the camp or preserving it as a memorial, the Soviets decided to use Sachsenhausen as their own concentration camp. It was put under the control of the NKVD (the Soviet secret service). Former Nazi officials were imprisoned here, together with political prisoners. About 60,000 Germans were imprisoned here between 1945 and 1950, of whom over 12,000 died from hunger and disease. The camp was finally closed in March 1950, after which it was used by the East German army and police. In 1961 the site was turned into a National Memorial: at that time it was used by the communist regime as a symbol of the "victory of anti-fascism over fascism".
link
 
#17
Ex_ex said:
Not everybody got sent to Gulags. Some Nazi concentration camps were put "under new management".

Instead of destroying the camp or preserving it as a memorial, the Soviets decided to use Sachsenhausen as their own concentration camp. It was put under the control of the NKVD (the Soviet secret service). Former Nazi officials were imprisoned here, together with political prisoners. About 60,000 Germans were imprisoned here between 1945 and 1950, of whom over 12,000 died from hunger and disease. The camp was finally closed in March 1950, after which it was used by the East German army and police. In 1961 the site was turned into a National Memorial: at that time it was used by the communist regime as a symbol of the "victory of anti-fascism over fascism".
link
Maybe this took place... maybe no. Who knows?

By the way, who is the author of this text? What are evidences? How these numbers 60,000 and 12,000 (why not 22,000?) were obtained?

Guardian refers to British official sources. But what are the sources in this case?

Is it possible that the Germans in attept to whitewash their real and undeniable atrocities simply forged this number 12,000? There was a lot of Nazi war criminals, henchmen from Gestapo, members of SS. Was it fair that they were kept in custody after the end of the war? Probably yes. And 60,000 is not 600,000, it is not 6,000,000.

Only 60,000 - not too many. Suppose that 12,000 died. So at least 48,000 were alive in 1950. Where are their memoirs? Were they starved or frosen to death?

No doubt many died from these 60,000, maybe even several hundreds during 5 years. Indeed from diseases, from wounds, from other natural causes, from suicides. No doubt, many were in depressive state. Their great Germany, their 1000-years Reich was defeated by these untermeschen - Slavs. That time there were big difficulties with food in Soviet Union. So unlikely German war criminals that were held in Sachsenhausen had the best possible food. Some that lived in luxury conditions previously could regard it as a starvation.

Anyway I don't see creadible evidences that German prisoners were intentionally starved of frozen to death in Sachsenhausen.
 
#18
It was taken from here:

link
 
B

benjaminw1

Guest
#19
KGB_resident said:
Ex_ex said:
Not everybody got sent to Gulags. Some Nazi concentration camps were put "under new management".

Instead of destroying the camp or preserving it as a memorial, the Soviets decided to use Sachsenhausen as their own concentration camp. It was put under the control of the NKVD (the Soviet secret service). Former Nazi officials were imprisoned here, together with political prisoners. About 60,000 Germans were imprisoned here between 1945 and 1950, of whom over 12,000 died from hunger and disease. The camp was finally closed in March 1950, after which it was used by the East German army and police. In 1961 the site was turned into a National Memorial: at that time it was used by the communist regime as a symbol of the "victory of anti-fascism over fascism".
link
Maybe this took place... maybe no. Who knows?

By the way, who is the author of this text? What are evidences? How these numbers 60,000 and 12,000 (why not 22,000?) were obtained?

Guardian is well known newspaper, it refers to British official sources. But what are sources in this case?
No maybe about it at all, pal!

I *know* people very, very, close to me that went through the Gulag and all of it happened

The KGB was no different to the SS. The Soviet Union was worse than Nazi Germany in the suffering, persecution and murder of innocent people.

Take your despicable moral relativism back to your NKVD Old Comrades meetings.

Been there before
 
#20
Ex_ex said:
It was taken from here:

link
Ex_ex!

I edited my previous post to make my point clear.

Let's look at your link

http://www.gedenkstaette-sachsenhausen.de/gums/en/index.htm

The special camps were not labour camps and so differed to the Soviet gulags. They also differed greatly to the National Socialist concentration camps as there was no intent to exterminate the internees and the camp personnel rarely assaulted the inmates.
No comment.

http://www.gedenkstaette-sachsenhausen.de/gums/en/index.htm

A large number of minor functionaries of the NSDAP and its structures and other members of the NS terror system were held in Sachsenhausen. Guards from Ravensbrück concentration camp and Sachsenhausen's administration were also held in special camp No.7 / No.1 The first director of the Gestapo's special commission in Sachsenhausen, Carl August Rikowski, died in the camp in 1949. Other prisoners had taken part in mass murders, such as the professor of medicine, Hans Heinze, who as director of the Brandenburg-Görden Psychiatric Institute (Psychiatrischen Landesanstalt), between 1938 and 1945, was directly involved in the planning and carrying out of the euthanasia of children, a NS euphemism for murder.
I'm sure, their right place was in custody in 1945.
 

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