Group Size Prior to APWT

Evening Troops.

What are the required group sizes prior to firing the APWT OA & Svcs?

Am I correct with:

SUSAT 225mm @ 100M

Iron Sight 300mm @ 100M

Thanks in advance :?
 
P

PrinceAlbert

Guest
I'm unsure of the answer, but they sound rather large to me??

300mm and 225mm?!?! You'd have to be blind to fail them.
 

PAC2428

Clanker
20 Round Group (Zeroing at 100 m)

SUSAT = 225 mm
Irons = 300 mm

5 Round Check Group (Zeroing at 100 m)

SUSAT = 150 mm
Irons = 200 mm

MPI (centre) of the Check Group should be 50 mm or less from the CZP otherwise you may as well throw stones at the 300 metre target on the APWT!!!
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Is a 30mm 5 round check group good then? :D
 

afcass

Old-Salt
I'd think a sawn-off could do 300mm at that range! :)
 

ArmrJay

Clanker
Bear in mind that the targets are 455mm wide so you really need a grouping of 150mm at 100m at the most to give you a chance of hitting the 300m targets (Estimated scoring Area I think it is called - but don't quote me, my coaching skills are a bit rusty!)
 
P

PrinceAlbert

Guest
Hat4life said:
What does the current (new) APWT consist of?

Anyone have any genuine tips for kneeling and standing positions aside from the marksmanship principles?

Keep steady :D
 

Lampard

War Hero
Hat4life said:
What does the current (new) APWT consist of?

Anyone have any genuine tips for kneeling and standing positions aside from the marksmanship principles?
#


Don't hold the position for too long on the standing.

Fire your one shot fairly quickly, then drop to prone and fire the remaining 4 from a decent position.
 

wessex_warrior

War Hero
standing

Body 45% to target, feet shoulder width and slightly bent, feet pointing slightly otwards. Adjust position with whole body so that weapon comes naturally into the aim pointing at the target. Bring weapon up, get body position right, allow to come down into alert position with minimum movement of other parts of the body.

When the target comes up, weapon up, breathe in, let it out and line up, hold breath, squeeze off round, apply safety and get into prone ASAP.

Kneeling

Left foot pointing at target, sitting back with heel of right boot up your jacksie or right boot on its side and you sitting upon it.

Get your left elbow either forward or behind the knee, not on it. Try to relax, this position is uncomfortable for the first few years of your army career until your body gets used to it, this can lead to instability, then you tense up to try and counter the instability and get the shakes even worse.

Trick is to relax, breathe and practice the position until it becomes more stable.
 
PAC2428 said:
20 Round Group (Zeroing at 100 m)

SUSAT = 225 mm
Irons = 300 mm

5 Round Check Group (Zeroing at 100 m)

SUSAT = 150 mm
Irons = 200 mm

MPI (centre) of the Check Group should be 50 mm or less from the CZP otherwise you may as well throw stones at the 300 metre target on the APWT!!!

To achieve a "marksman" my 2* cadets (age approx 14) group 102mm or less at 100m (5 rounds) with iron sight only!
 
As ever, feel free to disagree, YMMV, but some thoughts...

Standing.

Stand still. If you're wobbling all over the place, the rifle doesn't stand a chance. You're more likely to stand still if your head is more or less level, which leads into:-

The rifle should fit you, don't hunch up to fit the rifle. Don't get obsessed with putting the butt into the shoulder; it's OK to allow the bottom of the butt to sit on the part of the upper arm nearest the shoulder.

Try and get the left elbow under the rifle; it's there to support it, after all (see principle 1 - the bit that says "...without undue physical effort").

Kneeling.

Sit on your heel. Otherwise you're no more stable than in the standing position.

The problem with sitting on the side of your foot is that it's a b*gger to get in and out of position quickly. The problem with keeping the ball of your foot in contact with the ground is that there is little stability - you can wobble side to side easily - and it soon hurts. The answer is to do some stretching until the whole of the front of your foot (ie toecap and bootlaces) are in contact with the ground. This is both stable, and fast to move into / out of; you just roll over the top of the toe, and drop into position.

If you've got stubby wee legs and a long back, your shoulders will be well above your knee, and you'll have to rest your elbow on it; use the back of the elbow, as the point wobbles too much; using the front of the elbow means that recoil buggers your position every shot because it starts to slip down your thigh.

If you've got long limbs and a short back, rest the magazine on your thigh, and drop your elbows down either side of your knee. Lovely and stable...


Training! And more Training!

If the only time you ever try and aim is on the firing point for the LF practices, or during the APWT, you're hosed - it isn't enough. Practice aiming at a mark, practice entering and leaving your firing positions. Do it a few times every time you sign out a weapon, and you'll improve.

You don't want to practice something that works on a range, but doesn't work in reality, so check that it's practical in fighting order...
 

Hat4life

Swinger
Thanks for the replies - just what I was looking for.

Is there much use in doing specific strength excerices to lessen any fatigue/shaking or is technique the key?
 
Hat4life said:
Thanks for the replies - just what I was looking for.

Is there much use in doing specific strength excerices to lessen any fatigue/shaking or is technique the key?

Both will do. But technique will win over strength, every time. I had a 5'2" petite teammate who outperformed a shedload of the Division's finest, using an SLR...
 
OK, some more stuff. Feel free to correct me...

Grip

The right hand is the "strong" one - a good firm grip is required, it does any pulling into the shoulder. To get that firm grip, try stretching your fingers back away from the palm; put the web of the hand high into the pistol grip; and then grip. Those stretched tendons are slightly elastic, and will now contract into a nice tight grip without a need to do quite so much "holding".

The left hand is for support - it shouldn't be doing any pulling, just supporting; as a result, you want that left elbow to be more-or-less underneath the weapon (maybe slightly to the left), in all positions.

There's a good reason for this. Service barrels trade off accuracy for weight; they only have to group to 2MOA or so, so can be made thinner and lighter. Unfortunately, this means that the barrel is bendy. The furniture on the rifle is generally attached to the barrel, unlike target rifles where the bit you hold on to is deliberately kept separate (a "free floating" barrel only touches the rifle at the back, nowhere else).

Homework for those who are curious and SUSAT equipped - take a Small-Arms Collimator and fit it to the rifle; take the reading while standing up. Now adopt a prone position, and see if you can change that reading by pulling on the front handguard with your left hand.

If you want scary, try the same thing with an LSW - it's a longer barrel, and the outrigger is bolted to the end, so you can get a fair amount of unintended leverage.

Points of Aim

Having checked your firing positions with a collimator - see whether the collimator reading varies between fire positions. Congratulations, you now know why you need to learn your points of aim for each position...
 

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