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Grim up north?

#1
From todays Guardian-

Scotland has second highest murder rate in Europe


Gerard Seenan

Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales, according to a study by the World Health Organisation.

The study, based on the latest crime figures from 21 western European countries, finds that only Finland has a higher murder rate than Scotland.

Scotland's homicide rate is 2.33 deaths for every 100,000 people each year, compared with 0.7 in England and Wales. In Spain it is 1.02, and in Italy 0.96. Germany has western Europe's lowest murder rate: 0.68 per 100,000 people.

While Finland's high murder rate is attributed to its liberal penal policy, which sees offenders sent to jail only as a very last resort, Scotland's rate is put down to the use of alcohol and drugs.

Almost half of murders in Scotland are committed by people under the influence of drink or drugs — particularly in Glasgow, which, despite its successful effort to shed its hardman image in the city centre, is still plagued with violence in its east end and hinterland estates.

Scotland's second city is in fact the murder capital of Europe, with about 70 killings each year. Much of the violence is caused by gangs vying to control the city's drugs trade.

But a culture of young men carrying knives also plays a part.

Official figures show that serious crime in the city has risen heavily: murders increased by 19% from 70 in 2003 to 83 in 2004. Attempted murders rose by a third in the same period, from 343 to 459.

John Carnochan, head of Strathclyde police's violence reduction unit, said the figures showed "new thinking" was required, and although a great deal of money had been spent, levels of violence remained "unacceptably high".

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservatives' home affairs spokeswoman, said a zero tolerance approach to policing should be adopted.

The WHO report follows a United Nations report last week which said Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world: more than 2,000 people were subject to a violent attack each week, more than 10 times official police figures. However, the report's claim was disputed by politicians and senior police officers.

Another study from the University of California, to be published later this year, will claim Scotland has a higher homicide rate than America, Israel, Uzbekistan, Chile and Uruguay.
Cultural stereotypes aside, what's going on here?
 

Bits

War Hero
#2
I've been saying for a very long time that the only way to reduce serious crime in Britain's Inner Cities is to bring back capital punishment for anyone dealing, distributing, or profiting from the sale of drugs.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservatives' home affairs spokeswoman, said a zero tolerance approach to policing should be adopted.
And this is bollocks. What is needed is not further New Labour targetitis inflicted on the police forces, it is zero tolerance sentencing! You can police anything you want as much as you want, but the punishment is in the sentence! When will our pinko liberal judiciary wake up and smell the coffee?
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#3
You're always going to get skewed results in surveys regarding health/employment/crime etc as long as you have to include Strathclyde.

If you could factor out the Weegies the figures would look much better.

Not East coast bias but fact. Glaswegians are on average poorer, more violent, less healthy and more prone to un-employment than anywhere else in Scotland.
 
#4
Sixtyfootdoll said:
You're always going to get skewed results in surveys regarding health/employment/crime etc as long as you have to include Strathclyde.

If you could factor out the Weegies the figures would look much better.

Not East coast bias but fact. Glaswegians are on average poorer, more violent, less healthy and more prone to un-employment (and less FEB like)than anywhere else in Scotland.
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#5
Touche! :-D
 
#6
Bits said:
I've been saying for a very long time that the only way to reduce serious crime in Britain's Inner Cities is to bring back capital punishment for anyone dealing, distributing, or profiting from the sale of drugs.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservatives' home affairs spokeswoman, said a zero tolerance approach to policing should be adopted.
And this is balls. What is needed is not further New Labour targetitis inflicted on the police forces, it is zero tolerance sentencing! You can police anything you want as much as you want, but the punishment is in the sentence! When will our pinko liberal judiciary wake up and smell the coffee?
Are the courts in Scotland more lenient than the ones in England and Wales then?
 

Bits

War Hero
#7
I don't think any court in the world is more lenient than the courts in England and Wales! I have no doubt that there are lots of social factors which contribute to crime rates, and from what other people have said it sounds like Glasgow might have more than it's fair share of problems, but at the end of the day if you hang every bugger selling crack to kids, people will soon stop doing it.
 
#8
Bits said:
I don't think any court in the world is more lenient than the courts in England and Wales! I have no doubt that there are lots of social factors which contribute to crime rates, and from what other people have said it sounds like Glasgow might have more than it's fair share of problems, but at the end of the day if you hang every bugger selling crack to kids, people will soon stop doing it.
Do you want to pay for it like?
 

Bits

War Hero
#9
liz_the_nurse said:
Bits said:
I don't think any court in the world is more lenient than the courts in England and Wales! I have no doubt that there are lots of social factors which contribute to crime rates, and from what other people have said it sounds like Glasgow might have more than it's fair share of problems, but at the end of the day if you hang every bugger selling crack to kids, people will soon stop doing it.
Do you want to pay for it like?
Do I want to pay for what? The cost of hanging people. Pretty cheap all round.
 
#10
I'm so ashamed - we got beaten by Finland!
Seriously, this comes as no surprise to anyone(apart from judges and high-ranking police officers)who lives up here.
There is no single reason. Partly it's social/genetic: Scots, especially those on the Wild West Coast, tend to be more aggressive than our Southern cousins. The Glaswegian gangster Jimmy Boyle wrote in his autobiography, A Sense of Freedom, about the differance between the big Scottish and English "firms".
Boyle had met the top London gangsters and said they were very hard, ruthless men. But while the English gangsters tended to use violance as a last resort - because it drew police attention and so was bad for business - the Scottish firms would hit/shoot/stab first and ask questions later.
There is a East-West split. Crime in Glasgow is bigger and bloodier than in Edinburgh. The violance in Glasgow is conected with organised crime, so tends to be more lethal than Edinburgh, with drugs gangs settling differances of opinion with firearms. In Edinburgh, most of the violance is caused by drunken and/or drugged young
men who often hunt in packs and attack for kicks. The violance is more random and blades are the weapon of choice.
Sentancing is a major cause of crime. Most judges simply don't live in the real world. Victims have been maimed and crippled and then seen their attackers sentanced to 2-3 years in jail. Of which they will serve only half. And we're not exactly talking about hard labour in a Gulag, either. Scottish prisons are fcuking holiday camps. The cons have DVD players, PC's, porn and drugs on tap etc.
Another factor is that only a small percentage of Scotland's police are on patrol at any one time. The rest are doing paperwork, giving evidance in court, attending traing courses etc.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#11
Three times more likely to get murdered than the English?...........that's because the 'sweaties' are three times more annoying and therefore three times as many people would like to top the little sh*tes.

Long may Glasgow reign as Europe's murder capital. Let's give them some guns and allow them to ethnically cleanse themselves. Obvioulsy the cardio respiratory tactics aren't working fast enough.
 
#12
I think that it's rich for the government to now turn around and announce their plans - where were they when Glasgow needed them? The fact is any large town (population) that's left pretty much to grow on it's own will entail problems especially hardship, which in turn will lead to frustration by the people. A frustrated city is not something that should be ignored and their efforts to help so far serve only as an example of this. Glaswegians do tend to be more easily provocted and yes there are drug problems that need serious attention, but let's face it if the government had done their job properly to begin with actions could have been taken a long time before now. I'm not saying I support anybody who deals but drugs and drug trafficking is a vicious circle that takes stupid amounts of time and money to break, and many of people involved in these crime figures would not have had a chance to make them if the proper procedures had been in place.

As for the rest of Scotland... we're not that bad...honest!
 
#13
Biscuits, if we kill each other off, who is going to show you Shandy-Drinkers how to be proper soldiers? Who's going to fight your wars, steal your sheep and rape your women - or is it the other way round?
Anyway, you're country will soon be ruled by Prime Minister For Life Gorden"Iron Balls"Brown. And he's one of God's Chosen People. So learn some respect for your betters.
Or I'll chib ya!
 
#14
tigerbaby said:
I'm not saying I support anybody who deals but drugs and drug trafficking is a vicious circle that takes stupid amounts of time and money to break.
I find people break their dealing habits quite quickly when you offer the alternative of chopping their hands off, or hanging on a second offence.
 
#15
I agree, entirely with werewolf, the crime in Scotland tends to be White Hetrosexual Able bodied Males who cause the shite in society with the undercurrent of crime carrying them along. I used to think being a police officer would be an awesome job serving the community and putting the bad guys away.
In reality as a police officer you have to 100% focused on your own personal safety and that of your colleague, as the figures state the highest serious cime figure is stabbings. More and more scots are being stabbed by the favourite weapon of choice, the screw driver, and the area which kills more people is the arse, as people stabbed there are less likely to seek medical help and get seen too.
How depressing is that? As for the paper work let's not go there!!
Anyway as members of the public we can all help the police reduce these crimes, by coming forward and helping in partnerships with one & another
 
#16
Bits said:
tigerbaby said:
I'm not saying I support anybody who deals but drugs and drug trafficking is a vicious circle that takes stupid amounts of time and money to break.
I find people break their dealing habits quite quickly when you offer the alternative of chopping their hands off, or hanging on a second offence.
Yeah I can see the violence stats going down already... Would work for virgin druggies but then good luck finding any of those in Glasgow!
 
#17
tigerbaby said:
Bits said:
tigerbaby said:
I'm not saying I support anybody who deals but drugs and drug trafficking is a vicious circle that takes stupid amounts of time and money to break.
I find people break their dealing habits quite quickly when you offer the alternative of chopping their hands off, or hanging on a second offence.
Yeah I can see the violence stats going down already... Would work for virgin druggies but then good luck finding any of those in Glasgow!
Why would it not work for the more established dealers? Do they have metal limbs or especially stiff necks?
 
#18
ok I'll give u that but then if u cut off the supply of drugs too quick ur gonna have an even bigger problem - violent weegies on a buggar of a comedown!
 
#19
Carefully controlled medical assistance to the users (who I genuinely believe are entitled to victim status, although I have twice kicked the shit out of them trying to mug me). Prescription barbiturates, and all the other help they need to get clean.

The money which is spent on dealing with the effects of the illegal narcotics trade is enormous, when you add up social security, healthcare, policing, and then also the knock-on effects of well funded criminal organisations. The money which was spent on dealing with these costs would probably run into hundreds of millions for a city the size of Glasgow, and that money could be spent on regeneration and education, giving people a real chance of a future.

If I ever meet a dealer I would gladly kick him to death.
 
#20
I agree but the day it happens....

As to victim status yeah they are and should be dealt with accordingly. I personally feel your only a victim if you let yourself be one, therefore they shouldn't go unpunished either. The fact is it should have been addressed before now. No "clean up" nessessary if you don't make a mess in the 1st place...
 

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