Green Energy

#1
The major benefit of renewables is you are not reliant on anyone else who cant use extortion or the threat of turning off the tap.

i.e. Russian gas/oil and oil from any middle eastern country that funds our demise.
 
#2
The term renewable energy resources is somewhat misleading. Coal, oil and gas are renewable. It merely takes a few million years. Wind and sun however are not renewable. The wind is not used up, the airflow is slowed down by an almost immeasureable amount. The sun is definitely not renewable, it will "burn" for around another 4,500,000,000 years, not that that is cause for concern.
 
#3
What greenie trollage is this?

Good luck when there's no wind, wantwit.

Atomkraft? Ja, gern!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#4
I use solar panels for outdoor events, they charge fob wet cells which one day will need to be changed and the old ones ditched in a stream somewhere!
 
#5
I agree Drlligaf energy is not renewable - it changes form.

The greens also spout nonsense about carbon and halving one's carbon footprint, but seem to have forgotten about the carbon cycle (which appears not to be taught anymore) :roll:

* Carbon is a basic building block of all known life on Earth. It is present in all known life forms. Without carbon, the basis for life would be impossible.

* Carbon is the fourth most abundant chemical element (by mass) in the universe, after hydrogen, helium, and oxygen.

* Carbon is abundant in the Sun, stars, comets, and in the atmospheres of most planets.

* Carbon is the second most abundant element (by mass) in the human body (18.5%), after oxygen.

* The amount of carbon on Earth is constant. It merely combines with other elements and moves from one reservoir to another.

* Carbon has many industrial uses for its three forms; amorphous, diamond, and graphite. The amorphous form (coal) is used in power plants and is used in the iron industry to make steel. The diamond form is used as jewelry and is used as part of cutting tools. The graphite form is a great conductor and is used for pencils and sports equipment.

* Carbon is a component of great rock masses in the form of carbonates of calcium (limestone), magnesium, and iron.

* In combination with oxygen in carbon dioxide, carbon is found in the Earth’s atmosphere and dissolved in all water bodies.


* When combined with hydrogen to form hydrocarbons, carbon is the basis for most of our energy sources, including coal, oil, petroleum, and natural gas.
 
#8
The term renewable energy resources is somewhat misleading. Coal, oil and gas are renewable. It merely takes a few million years. Wind and sun however are not renewable. The wind is not used up, the airflow is slowed down by an almost immeasureable amount. The sun is definitely not renewable, it will "burn" for around another 4,500,000,000 years, not that that is cause for concern.
You can't have it both ways, coal oil and gas are renewed by the Sun the same as wind and solar it just they take much longer to renew and require specific geological conditions.
 
#11
The major benefit of renewables is you are not reliant on anyone else who cant use extortion or the threat of turning off the tap.

i.e. Russian gas/oil and oil from any middle eastern country that funds our demise.
Slight problem there old bean. A lot of the "green" technologies rely on rare earth minerals. As China currently produce about 97% of the world supply, I hardly think we will be freed from reliance on other nations...
 
#12
You can't have it both ways, coal oil and gas are renewed by the Sun the same as wind and solar it just they take much longer to renew and require specific geological conditions.
That is just a truth used to swing the arguement by masking it in ignorance. Just like how current energy reaslisation is more efficient for things such as petrol engined cars but not on elecric cars, etc.

Efficiency being measured in here and now cost alone, which in turn ignores the vast sums used in the R&D of current technologies, but not of the techniques being developed.

As a nation we need to look at the whole picture and work it out holistically. Starting with building houses that don't suck up power and p1ss out heat. Electric ovens? get them gone and replaced with a primary fuel such as gas or wood. Same with heating should it be needed.

Once we start reducing the consumption required at homes, then we can work outwards.

There is absolutely NO need for us to be bringing in oil and leccy from foreign shores at the rate we do. We have more than enough resources of our own to harness, such as wind farms and even solar.

Why do we require huge shopping complexes on the edge of towns that we have to drive miles to?
Why do we need to live miles from where we work, so that a sprinkle of snow brings the nation to a standstill?
Why allow cars in to city centres when electric trams/busses could easily operate park and ride schemes, in fact why are we not looking at reducing the dependancy on cars and trucks in full?

It WILL require a change of our current systems of living and possibly even alter our way of life. But I don't see it being too much of a hardship.
 
#13
Dear wind/solar proponents: what happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine? Will you be volunteering to be the first in line to receive rolling blackouts? Don't answer that. It's like asking the population control people if they'll be volunteering to be first in line to remove themselves from the planet.
 
#14
Simple.
Look back a short while.

Read Russia turns off gas supply to Ukraine, threatening western europe's gas supply.
OPEC oil cartel fixing prices.
Russia turned of the supply because the Ukranians weren't paying. If Russia does not sell gas to us then they will soon be in dire economic straits.

If anyone really wants to see what socalled renewable/green energy means, then try this for size:
David MacKay FRS: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air: Contents
 
#15
Dear wind/solar proponents: what happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine? Will you be volunteering to be the first in line to receive rolling blackouts? Don't answer that. It's like asking the population control people if they'll be volunteering to be first in line to remove themselves from the planet.
I think the plan is we build enough of them that short of the sun going out that will never be a problem - it's never dark or still during the day across the whole UK is it? Although I swear that these wind turbines all require some very rare metal indeed the mining of which is far from eco-friendly.

EDIT: yep, someone else has already said that.
 
#16
I think the plan is we build enough of them that short of the sun going out that will never be a problem - it's never dark or still during the day across the whole UK is it? Although I swear that these wind turbines all require some very rare metal indeed the mining of which is far from eco-friendly.

EDIT: yep, someone else has already said that.
err, nighttime? Heavily overcast?

A large winter high-pressure system over the whole UK like a week or so last winter which had ZERO wind-power being produced cos it was completely still over the whole UK?

THese things really do produce miniscule amounts of electricity at enormous cost, e.g. 800 MW installed wind capacity (requires 4.4B Euro subsidy and sometimes will produce nothing at all) is equivalent to a 200MW gas fired power station, cost 280M Euro (this is a real example: planned Dutch north sea farm).

So E22M per effective MW to install wind; E1.4M per MW to install gas.

Plus, wind requires conventional backup which sits idle turning & burning half the time unless you want blackouts.

Personally I think that anyone who buys "green power" should live the dream & not get power if there's not enough "green" energy being produced to go around. And they should pay full price, no subsidy. See how popular it would be then at something probably approaching a quid per kWh once subsidy is gone and the real overall cost is being brought to the consumer, and intermittent.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#17
I bought the solar panel and wet cell as it cost me less than 1 weekends electrical hire at an outdoor event. I charge 3 or 4 car/leisure cells all year and take a couple along, often its too dark/overcast but I can run the invertor from the truck battery knowing that will recharge when I need it!
that is fairly rare, more often I have forgotten to stick everything in the conservatory on trickle!
 
#18
err, nighttime? Heavily overcast?.
Please enlighten me as to when you last had nighttime during the day?

And it might be overcast in one place, but never everywhere at once - and besides these systems would most likely have mechanisms in them to ensure that they generated a surplus during the day, so that it could be stored for (reduced, of course) use during the night and when other conditions were less good. That said I don't think anyone's proposing a total reliance on solar power; tidal power would most likely be the UK's biggest renewable source of energy were we to switch completely, followed by wind (most of which would be offshore).
 
#20
solar and wind can be backed up by conventional, as many point out, going completely to 'renewables' is a pipe dream. That said, we can, should and really oughta reduce our reliance on electricity, and produce as much as we can via renewables. Nighttime usage of power tends to be less than during the day anyway, even if you include all the lights that come on to light streets.

IIRC nukes and coal fired stations work cleaner and more efficiently if they are at a constant power setting anyway. So one method put forward is for the conventionals to run at a constant flat rate, with excess power being used to charge batteries/hydrogen cells or pump water back up the mountain.

when conditions allow, then renewables put there energy in also.

When you also start using CHP systems then we really start working towards a sustainable and greener future. ie a CHP in a school could easily heat the school and a swimming pool and power the school. A power station, instead of bleading heat through cooling towers could easily heat local hospitals, community buildings or even offer a free of charge heating system to local houses.

Re population growth, I beleive we need to keep the population in check. But I wouldn't offer up my own neck. But then I don't expect others to either. Populations can be kept in check through economics. Only offer incentives for 2 kids for example. Better yet, offer ALL parents the same deal regardless of child numbers, based around a 2 child family. Those who have 1 child are miles better off, those who have 3 are worse off. Thus large families are only started by those who can afford it anyway, rather than bored doleys who have nothing to watch on tele.
 

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