Greece in Chaos Thread

Discussion in 'Economics' started by Rumpelstiltskin, Oct 28, 2011.

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  1. Getting a bit of events, perhaps, but it's going to need a thread of its own soon enough, so I'd like this to be it.

    I got back from there this week, and it's a ****ing mess. Lethal political violence, warring militias, a government kept in power purely by the police's use of force, the civil service occupying their ministries and calling for the downfall of the government: a mess.

    Today, Greece's most sacred day:

    "Thousands of anti-austerity protesters jammed the centre of the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki on Friday, forcing the cancellation of an annual military parade and the hasty departure of the president and defence minister from the dignitaries’ stand.

    Carolos Papoulias, the 82-year-old head of state, was heard saying “Shame, shame,” as he was escorted from the platform by security officers, according to Greek television commentators.

    It was the first time in memory that the event had been called off because of fears of violent popular unrest, the commentators said."

    Greek protests scupper military parade -

    "Police clashed with members of the neo-fascist Chrysi Avgi group outside the Grand Bretagne hotel at Syntagma Square. There were reports that some extremists attacked migrants in central Athens." | Protesters force Thessaloniki parade to be cancelled

    Not an exciting post for now, but the first, I fear, of a soon-to-be-thriving thread. The countdown to a gendarmerie-led 'national unity government' starts now, I think.
  2. But Mrs. Merkel said not to worry & shares went up.... ?

    Shurely not at the price of a police state. What about democracy?? It all began in Greece after all.

    (hint of sarcasm & a touch of irony)
  3. There is no longer any democratic control over public policy. In my opinion the most likely outcome is a coup or some nut being elected who makes all sorts of ludicrous pledges.
  4. Time to pull the plug on Greece and let them rot.

    I've just come back from a party with a bunch of Greeks in attendance. Selfish, greedy and inconsiderate are the three respectable words I can think of. Apparantly, their 'solution' to the problem is for everybody to write off their debts and bung them loads more interest-free dosh to rebuild their economy so they can maintain the lifestyle that they have become accustomed to.

    One had the temerity to complain and whinge about the Slovaks for stalling the agreement to bail them out. The point that Slovaks have a worse economy and significantly lower standard of living was brushed aside as an irrelevance. "It's Slovakia's duty to contribute to the fund to save the Euro."

    They are holding Europe to ransom and getting away with it. ENOUGH!
    • Like Like x 2
  5. I hope the shit ***** burn in the hell they have made for themselves. My reasoning being personal rather political or economic.

  6. Civil breakdown followed by military coup and eviction from EU.
  7. Ah, but the Greek argument is that the debt repayments are generally rerouted to:

    French/German banks
    French/German arms manufacturers
    Greek politicians' Swiss bank accounts

    Hence the desire of the vast majority of Greeks I spoke to in Greece to leave the EU, leave the Euro, and burn down the parliament.

    Greece's crisis has gone beyond an economic one, I think. There are threads for the Euro bailout, this is, I think, one about the Eurozone's only Balkan country reverting suddenly to unstable type.
  8. Can see why they spent over the odd's on their Military, Cyprus may not become a sunshine and ice cream tour!
  9. Greece's rather vicious civil war in 1945 was never really finalised, just put on ice, and the ice is now melting I suspect.
  10. By no means an unlikely scenario. And where Greece leads, others may follow. A military government would guarantee expulsion from the EU; however, in their present frame of mind, the Greeks may consider the former a price worth paying for the latter. Incidentially, an Egyptian lady made a similar comment to me recently re. her country - better a military government than the Islamic Brotherhood.
  11. If Greece does a coup, Stavros and his mates in Limassol had better stop sticking their tongues out at the Turks up north.
  12. RP578

    RP578 LE Book Reviewer

    I don't know. Their last experience of a Junta wasn't the happiest of episodes in that nation's history. It's still well within many people's memories and something of a sore point in the attitudes of many Greeks towards NATO who they blame for supporting the Coup of the Colonels.
  13. Apparently, popular opinion in Crete and Mani (traditionally Royalist areas) is already for temporary military rule.

    However, tanks on the streets in Athens would lead, simply, to a Syria outcome.

    However the police- in fact a gendarmerie, in Greece, and an arm of the military whose special forces perform the function of the SAS- might be able to impose some form of 'order'.

    I was reviewing my Athens footage today, and it was terrifying. Crowds of thousands cheering when a copper went up in flames; people accusing each other of being scret police before trying to bash them to death, people blaming us (the UK, why?) for this being the same as the Dekemvriana ( Greek Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). When EVERYONE says, 'this is war now", "we must kill them to survive" and asking for UN observers before it gets too mental, then it's all gone wrong.

    Edit: a police 'coup' would be easier to sell abroad, as it's easier to mask. Given the absolute loss of control PASOK now has over everything outside parliament, and the simple, observable fact that the police are the only thing keeping PASOK in power, it would currently be hard to tell when a coup begins, other than a sudden outcrop of deluxe swimming pools in police generals' villas.

    Within the army, supposedly the defence minister has already moved to condemn anti-EU mutterings from 'patriotic officers' associations' and briefed - jitteringly, to Greeks- that the army stands behind the elected government.

    Barroso warned last year that Greece, Spain and Portugal could see a return to military rule unless Frankfurt sorted its shit out. I don't think anyone can doubt that Greece is the weakest link in Europe's political stability chain.
  14. Blbost!

    I would point out that the Slovak economy is doing ok - much better than most given all those micro cars that Western Europeans bought. Home - The Slovak Spectator

    VW Golf - Bratislava, Slovakia, since 1991 - 2
    PSA: Trencin
    KIA: Zilina

    US Steel Kosice... high end steel production

    Slovnaft: Gas

    Samsung everything? Galanta
    Phillips? Miglas

    Lenovo: Blava

    And on and on...

    Indeed, although the Slovak may earn less than a Greek - possibly true, the standard of living is ok.

    Where an English teacher could earn GBP40 an hour, and where the average monthly income in Blava back in 2004 was GBP2000 a month, things have only got better in Slovakia.

    Although in truth, Meciar the self-proclaimed father of the Slovaks did teach them how to rip off the EU, with Slota, Fico et al taking notes...

    Being peasants, when they gain money, they like to keep it.
  15. Which seems pretty logical to all but the Greeks themselves.

    And every other Greek who's been avoiding tax for the past X years!!!

    I heard that too. And when I asked what sort of livestyle they expected to live without all of these generous bungs from the rest of Europe etc etc, stoney silence.

    The Greek crisis never was an economic one. The Greeks have a societal failure that was kept hidden by economic delusions of grandure. If there is to be another bloodletting in the Balkans, I vote for it to be in Greece. Unlike Yugoslavia, their problems are more rooted in the attitude of the people as a whole rather than the political elite, and thus only have themselves blame - despite all they manifest protestations to the contrary.