Got the door in my face there...

#1
Having just tried to get some 4-tonners, rat packs and exercise ammo together and got some good planning and orders done, the rest of the platoon staff and I got the door slammed in our faces well and good. That sucked, because the piece de résistance for the exercise would be an airmobile attack by the platoon in a Chinook.

Some training officer from batallion intervened, killed of our exercise and told us that: a) HE would decide what training we needed. b) the company doesn't have any budget whatsoever, ALL budget is controlled by batallion, ie HIM. c) We would immediately hand over all contactinformation to the Chinook squadron over to HIM so HE would decide who got the support helicopters. HE would also make bloody well sure that that wouldn't be us!

So... Does anyone have any ideas on: a) how to organise a manoeuvre exercise for a general service infantry platoon that doesn't need a lot of ammunition and no logistical support whatsoever? Does anyone have some orders lying around? b) how to kill a training captain from batallion and get away with it? I do hear that these papercuts can be pretty nasty... 8O

edited for p!ssed off spelling...
 
#3
Kaye said:
Having just tried to get some 4-tonners, rat packs and exercise ammo together and got some good planning and orders done, the rest of the platoon staff and I got the door slammed in our faces well and good. That sucked, because the piece de résistance for the exercise would be an airmobile attack by the platoon in a Chinook.

Some training officer from batallion intervened, killed of our exercise and told us that: a) HE would decide what training we needed. b) the company doesn't have any budget whatsoever, ALL budget is controlled by batallion, ie HIM. c) We would immediately hand over all contactinformation to the Chinook squadron over to HIM so HE would decide who got the support helicopters. HE would also make bloody well sure that that wouldn't be us!

So... Does anyone have any ideas on: a) how to organise a manoeuvre exercise for a general service infantry platoon that doesn't need a lot of ammunition and no logistical support whatsoever? Does anyone have some orders lying around? b) how to kill a training captain from batallion and get away with it? I do hear that these papercuts can be pretty nasty... 8O

edited for p!ssed off spelling...
Find out whether he has the new qual for blank firing training. If not report him!

:D
 
#4
Kaye said:
Having just tried to get some 4-tonners, rat packs and exercise ammo together and got some good planning and orders done, the rest of the platoon staff and I got the door slammed in our faces well and good. That sucked, because the piece de résistance for the exercise would be an airmobile attack by the platoon in a Chinook.

Some training officer from batallion intervened, killed of our exercise and told us that: a) HE would decide what training we needed. b) the company doesn't have any budget whatsoever, ALL budget is controlled by batallion, ie HIM. c) We would immediately hand over all contactinformation to the Chinook squadron over to HIM so HE would decide who got the support helicopters. HE would also make bloody well sure that that wouldn't be us!

So... Does anyone have any ideas on: a) how to organise a manoeuvre exercise for a general service infantry platoon that doesn't need a lot of ammunition and no logistical support whatsoever? Does anyone have some orders lying around? b) how to kill a training captain from batallion and get away with it? I do hear that these papercuts can be pretty nasty... 8O

edited for p!ssed off spelling...
Disappointing for you if you had managed to organise all that stuff at platoon level.Did you have naughty pictures of the Chinook Squadron OC havng floral arrangements stuffed up his fundament.

Otherwise,The man from Battalion is perfectly right in all he says (possibly a bit of a caaahnt) but right all the same.
 
#5
Yeh, I know. It isn´t so much what he said, but how he said it. Our OC is a man who appreciates and stimulates initiative and effort. Our PSI´s like it when people come up to them and involve them in stuff like setting up exercises.

The training captain is a commisioned SNCO who is very much sidelined. He is a barracks soldier and knows all regulations by heart. So when somewhere down below some people start having fun in their job he jumps from his ivory tower and descends on them like the proverbial tonne of.

Instead of having been right, he could also have been supportive! Acting in a manner like: "You cannot suddenly decide to take up a lot of stores and start making miles in 4-tunnies. But when you tell me what you need far enough in advance, I 'll see what I can do. It is afterall my job to support the training of the batallion..."

So instead of getting mad, I want to get even and have good exercise anyway!

By the way: Since my platoon sergeant used to be a Royal Netherlands Marine NCO and I was one in the Air Assault brigade we're both trained in all things airmobile. The sergeant is also a conservator of a museum remembering the Battle of Arnhem and thus has good contacts with the RNLAF airfield in Deelen. Thus when he met the OiC of the MAOT 1 and 1 became two and we started training the platoon. Now one hand washes the other. Utterly informal, but our OC and the PSI's love it. So do we... That @#$%# of a captain doesn't...
 
#6
Having not been in the TA I don't know the ins and outs, but what you were trying to organise sounds like quite a big training ex (in that it involves 2 services) and I could imagine that a few people would get a shity on with you not going through the proper channels.

Yes he could have been nicer about it but if he's in charge of supplying assets you'd need him on side for it to happen.

Good idea, bad execution.
 
#7
If you have contacts who make training better you should be encouraged not have the rug pulled by an irritating little man who's toy box you opened without asking!
 
#8
Bad_Crow said:
If you have contacts who make training better you should be encouraged not have the rug pulled by an irritating little man who's toy box you opened without asking!
and whose budget you're spending. There are channels for a reason.

Attitude is not excusable though.

Sounds like it would have been a bloody good exercise though.
 
#9
Now you've just announced your name to anyone on ARRSE who can identify the individuals concerned...

We used to have PC's weekends, where the Pl Comd would plan the training. Sometimes it was a long weekend up the hills, sometimes a square mile of STANTA and as much blank as we could carry, it depended on what the toms needed at the time, i.e. an improvement in a specific battle skill, a general morale-building scrap or a 'team-building' type of w/e to integrate a large number of recruits.

OP drills are good; we used to cover a frontage of c. 2km, moving in on Friday night (your orders to OP comd's are on the previous drill night, so they have time to prepare). Then the enemy would move in, and be reported accordingly. Saturday night, send out the recce patrols to check the en pos, routes in etc. (makes the Section commanders deliver their own orders). Make your orders for the attack on Sun morn exclusively from the information you receive from your patrols, then go in and blat the enemy before PUFO.

A variation is to establish an OPFOR pattern of behaviour, and put in an ambush. Find a barn or house and you've got house-clearing drills, too.

You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back, a friendly farm if no training grounds are available (with appropriate warnings to plod), 3 or 4 guys to be enemy and enough blank for a single attack, plus rations etc. If no transport, I guess you could use the toms' own transport to and from a farm, but I don't know how legal this is these days.

We used to use burning tyres in pits and crow scarers as batsim, but it was probably illegal then, and is doubly so now.

Keep your head down in future!
 
#10
Kaye said:
Yeh, I know. It isn´t so much what he said, but how he said it. Our OC is a man who appreciates and stimulates initiative and effort. Our PSI´s like it when people come up to them and involve them in stuff like setting up exercises.

The training captain is a commisioned SNCO who is very much sidelined. He is a barracks soldier and knows all regulations by heart. So when somewhere down below some people start having fun in their job he jumps from his ivory tower and descends on them like the proverbial tonne of.

Instead of having been right, he could also have been supportive! Acting in a manner like: "You cannot suddenly decide to take up a lot of stores and start making miles in 4-tunnies. But when you tell me what you need far enough in advance, I 'll see what I can do. It is afterall my job to support the training of the batallion..."

So instead of getting mad, I want to get even and have good exercise anyway!

By the way: Since my platoon sergeant used to be a Royal Netherlands Marine NCO and I was one in the Air Assault brigade we're both trained in all things airmobile. The sergeant is also a conservator of a museum remembering the Battle of Arnhem and thus has good contacts with the RNLAF airfield in Deelen. Thus when he met the OiC of the MAOT 1 and 1 became two and we started training the platoon. Now one hand washes the other. Utterly informal, but our OC and the PSI's love it. So do we... That @#$%# of a captain doesn't...
Sorry,I didn't realise you were a clog-dancing windmill dweller who puts his fingers in dykes.You probably have a vastly greater availability of Chinooks compared to the UK.Congratulations on your initiative.Your OC has himself an asset in you.
 
#11
PassingBells said:
Bad_Crow said:
If you have contacts who make training better you should be encouraged not have the rug pulled by an irritating little man who's toy box you opened without asking!
and whose budget you're spending. There are channels for a reason.

Attitude is not excusable though.

Sounds like it would have been a bloody good exercise though.
True but thats for the training officer to say.

"Fair play, next time come through me with your contacts. Now, lets see what we can do to make this a good exercise."
 
#12
The biggest problem you have here is about how you've gone about organising it.

First off you should have approached the Training officer in the battilon to initially clear the exercise with him, i.e go over your initial wish list with him.

He will then look at his budget for the training year and allocate to you an amended wish list, both resourses and ammo will come from the battalions annual allocation.

Remember he has to look towards the rest of the year for training the battalion, more and more these days budget controls training.

I'm affraid that a chinook is a hell of a chunk of money for a company training weekend, but if it was a battalion training then it could be justified.

But the way he handled if could have been better, simply saying good idea but here's your realistic budget, ammo and rations now crack on :D
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
angular said:
OP drills are good; ....

You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back, a friendly farm if no training grounds are available (with appropriate warnings to plod), ...how legal this is these days.

We used to use burning tyres in pits and crow scarers as batsim, but it was probably illegal then, and is doubly so now.

Keep your head down in future!
As an aside, is that allowed, ie not necessarily on a military training area, but nearby farmer giles??
 
#14
Well, it used to be, but you had to tell plod (in advance) that the sudden outbreak of gunfire wasn't a terrorist training camp going mental, or some such.

Posers running round in combats with gats can get people's atention, too.
 
#15
PassingBells said:
Bad_Crow said:
If you have contacts who make training better you should be encouraged not have the rug pulled by an irritating little man who's toy box you opened without asking!
and whose budget you're spending. There are channels for a reason.

Attitude is not excusable though.

Sounds like it would have been a bloody good exercise though.
No, we´re not spending his budget. The beauty of the thing is that we´re essentially an RNLAF training asset when they´re using us as 35 x 200 pounds of warm meat as pax for the training of aircrew. The mere fact that we use these moments to train air assault skills and drills doesn´t matter. It´s not the batallion budget we´re using. The batallion is gaining a free training moment, which also included one fully trained platoon staff that can start instructing other platoons in time.

Having read the coments by some people above, I do realise that we (ahem, mostly I :oops: ) have been cocky about it. We did (read: do) think that we're somehow allowed to bypass people like the good captain when we feel that we're justified to do so because we're so feckin' good at what we do.
But off course he is a captain, he is in charge of training and he does have a veto. So bringing the guy a bottle of Port and getting him in on the deal (maybe let him take his picture next to the heli) is a better plan that avoiding him. *Condescending mode is now Off*

And, no. We do not have a better availability of Chinooks. Windmills do have rotors, but are a bad alternative to the actual thing. The RNLAF now has 18 CH-47D (HC4 equivalent) and is about to receive 6 more to replace three losses and expand the capabillity.
Since there is no separate training unit and a BIG operational pressure (our Cougar's don't work that well in the 'Stan because of the altitude) the availabillity for Air Assault infantry units is pretty low.
One MAOT corporal said that since we started to perform the training thing for the Sqn we probably flew more often that the Air Assault people!
 
#16
chrisg46 said:
angular said:
OP drills are good; ....

You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back, a friendly farm if no training grounds are available (with appropriate warnings to plod), ...how legal this is these days.

We used to use burning tyres in pits and crow scarers as batsim, but it was probably illegal then, and is doubly so now.

Keep your head down in future!
As an aside, is that allowed, ie not necessarily on a military training area, but nearby farmer giles??
"Training on Private Land" or TOPL - No problem at all provided you organise it right. Your Bde HQ will have a "lands" team who need to be involved early - Here in Scotland 51 Bde have a database of on-side landowners. After getting Bde permission you can contact the landowner and discuss the planned exercise, get permission for vehicles, hels, portaloos, digging and blank/pyro etc. Get a signature back to Bde and away you go. HQ 2 Div Standing Instruction 27.1 refers.

More complex if you want to use Forestry Commission land as the beggars want paid for it and also Defence Estates get involved. ( Which imust be one of the better complete wastes of taxpayers money - getting three sets of civil servants involved in moving our money around inside the Government. Surely the MOD should be able to use FE land at any time other than when the chain-saws are actually in action ?)
 
#17
angular said:
You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back,
Not any more you don't, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the MOD has had yet another common sense by pass. You are not allowed to carry troops in the back of a 4 tonner any more.
For H&S purposes they are to be renamed NTCV's.....
 
#18
lacrabat said:
angular said:
You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back,
Not any more you don't, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the MOD has had yet another common sense by pass. You are not allowed to carry troops in the back of a 4 tonner any more.
For H&S purposes they are to be renamed NTCV's.....
That´s because of some Dutch f#ck up, I´m afraid. During an NRF exercise in Norway a few years ago, a 4-tonner carrying some troops in the back slid off a road and rolled over. Some blokes died and the rest got injured.
For a while no troops could be transported in 4-tonners. Budget Rentacar did good business I'll tell ya! But in the mean time a rollcage that could be mounted in the back of the DAF's was designed and built. The trucks that are equiped with such a rollcage-seat arrangment construction in the back are now called 'Walibi's.'

The UK MoD didn't buy the rollcages/seats and just gave out an oukaze saying that no troops could be carried in the rear of the DAF's.
 
#19
Erm, my section were riding around in a four tonner equipped with some kind of roll cage/seats/seatbelt/weapon rack/dropship from Aliens type arrangements last weekend. Apparently they were put in over Christmas.

I was sat in the front in the warm. :D
 
#20
Kaye said:
lacrabat said:
angular said:
You'll need one or two 4-tonners to get you out and back,
Not any more you don't, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the MOD has had yet another common sense by pass. You are not allowed to carry troops in the back of a 4 tonner any more.
For H&S purposes they are to be renamed NTCV's.....
That´s because of some Dutch f#ck up, I´m afraid. During an NRF exercise in Norway a few years ago, a 4-tonner carrying some troops in the back slid off a road and rolled over. Some blokes died and the rest got injured.
For a while no troops could be transported in 4-tonners. Budget Rentacar did good business I'll tell ya! But in the mean time a rollcage that could be mounted in the back of the DAF's was designed and built. The trucks that are equiped with such a rollcage-seat arrangment construction in the back are now called 'Walibi's.'

The UK MoD didn't buy the rollcages/seats and just gave out an oukaze saying that no troops could be carried in the rear of the DAF's
? wtf... these have been around for the last year, my unit has two. trouble is . there is only 12 seats so to move a plt you will need 2 + a LR i'd guess. oh and another thing troops can only ride for a max of 1 hour in the back of a daf according to the standing orders. you also have to do a course to fit the damn thing which you need a forklift in you possesion and a course to drive that as well. that probly explains why they are still in the admin hanger.
 

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top