Goretex advice please.

[Fishsoxs]

I am undertaking several events later in the year where on the compulsory kit list it states waterproof jacket with taped seams. No issues with that and it is high time to replace my current Goretex Pac Lite jacket which has not been able to cope with the recent rainfall and leaving me completely soaked, so time for a change.

Two Goretex Pro jackets in particular have taken my eye that claim to offer protection in atrocious weather conditions (this is my main reason) and they are the Montane Alpine Resolve which is a 40 denier jacket reinforced with 80 denier panels and the Rab Latok GTX which is 70 denier.

I completely understand that no Goretex jacket is completely waterproof and liable to wet out in certain scenarios but my questions are:

1. What benefit would the 70 denier fabric have over the 40 denier apart from being more durable and abrasion resistant?
2. The difference in weather protection and water resistance over a different fabric of jacket such as the Paramo Alta 3 that uses Nikwax.
3. Has anyone used either jacket and what are your views?

Thanks for your views.

 

[MadKev]

See if the two companies provide hydrostatic height, rather than denier.

 

[japseyewarrior]

I am undertaking several events later in the year where on the compulsory kit list it states waterproof jacket with taped seams. No issues with that and it is high time to replace my current Goretex Pac Lite jacket which has not been able to cope with the recent rainfall and leaving me completely soaked, so time for a change.

Two Goretex Pro jackets in particular have taken my eye that claim to offer protection in atrocious weather conditions (this is my main reason) and they are the Montane Alpine Resolve which is a 40 denier jacket reinforced with 80 denier panels and the Rab Latok GTX which is 70 denier.

I completely understand that no Goretex jacket is completely waterproof and liable to wet out in certain scenarios but my questions are:

1. What benefit would the 70 denier fabric have over the 40 denier apart from being more durable and abrasion resistant?
2. The difference in weather protection and water resistance over a different fabric of jacket such as the Paramo Alta 3 that uses Nikwax.
3. Has anyone used either jacket and what are your views?

Thanks for your views.

Have you retreated your current jacket to stop it wetting out?

I've got two Latoks. One I've had for about 13 years, reproofed a couple of times and has been used on a few expeds as well as some day to day use. Still works like new.

The other is a size up (so it can fit over my biggest warm kit) and bright red. It's my emergency, bottom of the daysack, next to the emergency shelter, one for winter walking. Bought second hand off Ebay and reproofed for peace of mind.

A part of me wants to try the theory on Paramo, but haven't taken the plunge yet. I think I'd still carry a technical waterproof until I've got full confidence.

 

[LanceBombardEars]

See if the two companies provide hydrostatic height, rather than denier.

Exactly this. The denier will only suggest the thickness of the fabric.
Hydrostatic head and the breathabilty rating is more relevant.
The best jackets have around 20k/20k ratings.
Anything less than 10k on either rating I wouldn't use for serious activities, especially if I was getting hot.

3 layer fabrics are more hardwearing but tend to be heavier. 2 layer often means you end up with a plastic feeling coating against your skin. Which I hate.

Paramo works very differently and rather than allowing moisture vapour out, 'pumps' the sweat out. I've got a Paramo jacket, and honestly I can't decide. But it is very comfortable.

 

[AsterixTG]

Can't help with specific weights and materials, but I spend a fair bit of time in less that perfect conditions and have come to the following conclusions.

The stuff that lets you breath gets you wet from the outside.
The stuff that keeps you dry from the outside gets you wet from the inside.

You might get away with the latter if you're static, but move even a little and forget about it. I've tried everything from the cheapest pac-a-mac binbag to the most expensive Gortex - nothing is perfect. Anyway, there's at least four massive holes in each garment anyway, and water always gets in somehow.

So don't aim for being dry, aim for being comfortable. Make sure the base layer is a Merino Wool (warm when wet) long sleeve T-Shirt, the outer layer is at least windproof, then insulate in the middle depending on your work rate.

All imho of course.

Sorry I couldn't help with the specifics.

As an aside - I use a Berghaus Paclite for an outer waterproof for bimbling about - it's as good/bad as any other.

 

[Archibald]

Paramo does not have taped seams

 

[LanceBombardEars]

eVent is the only technical fabric that has ever come close to managing the vapour I produce when working hard.

 

[LanceBombardEars]

Paramo does not have taped seams

It doesn't because it doesn't work the same way as other fabrics.
I have been on many events both as a competitor and marshal.
I'm pretty sure for any kit check Paramo would be considered 'proper' enough.
Lots of MRT issue them.

 

[Archibald]

It doesn't because it doesn't work the same way as other fabrics.
I have been on many events both as a competitor and marshal.
I'm pretty sure for any kit check Paramo would be considered 'proper' enough.
Lots of MRT issue them.

Not for the Spine races - you have to carry a taped seam jacket as well if you are using a Paramo jacket

 

[Fishsoxs]

See if the two companies provide hydrostatic height, rather than denier.

I believe both jackets are 28000hh

 

[Ortholith]

Just had a quick look and the new value to quote seems to be RET which is Resistance to Evaporative heat Transfer. Essentially another way to compare breathability but this time smaller number is better. Both jackets seem to be made of the same flavour of Goretex Pro and therefore have the same hydrostatic head (28,000mm) and similar breathability.

The Montane version is about 100g lighter, presumably down to the lighter fabric being used for most of the jacket. I like Montane kit (I'm still wearing an eVent alpine shell that's about 8 years old) but people I know swear by Rab as well.

You're probably best trying both on and seeing which you prefer for fit, pockets etc. as there shouldn't be much difference between them in terms of quality. I can't remember which jacket it was I tried on a few years ago that had two nice big pockets that were positioned exactly where a hip belt would make them useless.

 

[wheel]

Can't help with specific weights and materials, but I spend a fair bit of time in less that perfect conditions and have come to the following conclusions.

The stuff that lets you breath gets you wet from the outside.
The stuff that keeps you dry from the outside gets you wet from the inside.

You might get away with the latter if you're static, but move even a little and forget about it. I've tried everything from the cheapest pac-a-mac binbag to the most expensive Gortex - nothing is perfect. Anyway, there's at least four massive holes in each garment anyway, and water always gets in somehow.

So don't aim for being dry, aim for being comfortable. Make sure the base layer is a Merino Wool (warm when wet) long sleeve T-Shirt, the outer layer is at least windproof, then insulate in the middle depending on your work rate.

All imho of course.

Sorry I couldn't help with the specifics.

As an aside - I use a Berghaus Paclite for an outer waterproof for bimbling about - it's as good/bad as any other.

What Asterix TG said. I prefer Buffalo teclite as base layer with Alpkit Balance Waterproof jacket if things get wet. If its really cold Buffalo Mountain shirt with same waterproof.

 

[Fishsoxs]

Have you retreated your current jacket to stop it wetting out?

I've got two Latoks. One I've had for about 13 years, reproofed a couple of times and has been used on a few expeds as well as some day to day use. Still works like new.

The other is a size up (so it can fit over my biggest warm kit) and bright red. It's my emergency, bottom of the daysack, next to the emergency shelter, one for winter walking. Bought second hand off Ebay and reproofed for peace of mind.

A part of me wants to try the theory on Paramo, but haven't taken the plunge yet. I think I'd still carry a technical waterproof until I've got full confidence.

Yes washed and reproofed as per care instructions.

 

[S-mise]

I’ve a fair bit of experience with paramo. It’s great kit but the smock (no full length zip) can be too hot if you’re grafting. I’ve had it fail spectacularly twice in 15 years during hours of heavy rain. Both times deep in the Cairngorms on over nighters. My son was bone dry in goretex.

I use goretex when I expect rain. Paramo if it’s cold. Buffalo when it’s very cold and ventile to walk the dog.

 

[LanceBombardEars]

Not for the Spine races - you have to carry a taped seam jacket as well if you are using a Paramo jacket

I stand corrected.
Spine races are for lunatics.

 

[AsterixTG]

What Asterix TG said. I prefer Buffalo teclite as base layer with Alpkit Balance Waterproof jacket if things get wet. If its really cold Buffalo Mountain shirt with same waterproof.

I prefer the Montane Extreme Smock, but that is purely personal preference - Buffalos are superb too - just so much warmer than you think - I do it when it's proper snowy, go bare up top, pile straight on skin, super toasty - I prefer a base layer underneath if it's a bit warmer but wet as you can give it a good wringing out then put it back on again if need be.

 

[Ortholith]

I prefer the Montane Extreme Smock, but that is purely personal preference - Buffalos are superb too - just so much warmer than you think - I do it when it's proper snowy, go bare up top, pile straight on skin, super toasty - I prefer a base layer underneath if it's a bit warmer but wet as you can give it a good wringing out then put it back on again if need be.

Alpkit do their own version as well now which is fleece rather than pile, it's warm but not as ridiculously warm as the Extreme. I've been wearing it from November to now whereas usually the Extreme smock only gets used over Christmas and early January or up mountains, otherwise I'm a sweaty mess.

 

[Fishsoxs]

What Asterix TG said. I prefer Buffalo teclite as base layer with Alpkit Balance Waterproof jacket if things get wet. If its really cold Buffalo Mountain shirt with same waterproof.

Personally I prefer my Rab baseline hoody and an insulating jacket for most occasions.

Agree with your comments about Buffalo and was out earlier in my Montane Extreme jacket which I really like but for the events I'm doing would be too bulky and a bit too much.

Although I feel on the other hand there is a time and place for Goretex.

 

[wheel]

I prefer the Montane Extreme Smock, but that is purely personal preference - Buffalos are superb too - just so much warmer than you think - I do it when it's proper snowy, go bare up top, pile straight on skin, super toasty - I prefer a base layer underneath if it's a bit warmer but wet as you can give it a good wringing out then put it back on again if need be.

I have used buffalo teclite with merino base layer works well. Never tried the Montane Extreme Smock. As you say personal preference.
Point to note sleeves on teclite are a bit wide/baggy and I had to fettle the hood on mine to make it a tighter fit.

 

[AsterixTG]

I have used buffalo teclite with merino base layer works well. Never tried the Montane Extreme Smock. As you say personal preference.
Point to note sleeves on teclite are a bit wide/baggy and I had to fettle the hood on mine to make it a tighter fit.

The hood (included not extra like Buffalo...) on the Montane is epic.