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Goodbye Tristars, Hello Airbus

#2
... and said aircraft will probably be over-budget and 10 years past their original delivery date by the time they are first used...
 
#3
It's great news that we've finally ordered the things; our VC10s and Tristars are long past their sell by date.

However, I share reservations regarding a lease arrangement for such an important AAR/AT asset. It is also a major error for them not to be capable of receiving fuel via AAR.

However, let's get the things in asap!!
 
#4
Magic_Mushroom said:
It's great news that we've finally ordered the things; our VC10s and Tristars are long past their sell by date.

However, I share reservations regarding a lease arrangement for such an important AAR/AT asset. It is also a major error for them not to be capable of receiving fuel via AAR.

However, let's get the things in asap!!
Op Black Buck clearly not been heard of in procurement then :x
 
#6
woody said:
you just send a cruise missle nowadays :D .And it will hit the target :twisted:
well there is that but even so....

Seriously the same AAR was used to get reconnaissance over the target so it was used to effect and still could be.
 
#8
wg100 said:
... and said aircraft will probably be over-budget and 10 years past their original delivery date by the time they are first used...
They have to be a bit old so they can convincingly "break down" in Cyprus and other such places...
 
#10
TheBigUn said:
Excuse my ignorance but do the tankers have the ability to take fuel from their own bulk fuel tank? If you know what I mean :?
Is it even the same fuel? Presumably the A330s will be run on commercial AVTUR, especially if they are to retain their full civilian airliner rating.
I've no idea how military jet fuel differs from AVTUR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have the same additives at least.


Guess we could ask on PPrune, but frankly I've got some paint to watch drying, far more exciting.
 
#11
Great stuff....lets hope its got an Ents Suite on board!! :pc:

Now that the crabs are happy what about this little Lynx problem? :roll:
 
#13
And just as the major financial players are saying that PFI is a waste of money? Lets just throw loads more good money after bad and then say that year on year military spending has gone up! Is there any common sense/ex military up in decision land of the MoD/government? (although senior ex military and common sense are usually mutually exclusive terms I know.)
 
#14
Good news, but disturbed to hear the Airbus it self cannot be refueled in flight.

Poor old Lynx, far too small for it's army role but the size the Navy wanted for their anti sub boats.
Can't think just what cab would suit the AAC, but most likely Lynx no matter if it's a second rate choice.
john
Too paraphrase
Fine trash hauler ya crab, best thing since the mule & donkey.
Bill Slim the Army Commander of WW II.
 
#15
Tax_Tw-t said:
TheBigUn said:
Excuse my ignorance but do the tankers have the ability to take fuel from their own bulk fuel tank? If you know what I mean :?
Is it even the same fuel? Presumably the A330s will be run on commercial AVTUR, especially if they are to retain their full civilian airliner rating.
I've no idea how military jet fuel differs from AVTUR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have the same additives at least.
Yes, it's the same stuff (F34) and the tankers can use their own stocks. I could never really understand the RAF's policy on AAR fit on the VC10s and Tristars. In the '80s, the probes started re-appearing on the Tens (C1s) and in the early '90s the probes started to disappear off the Tristars. I understand the system was seldom used, but it would be handy to have the plumbing in place on the Airbuses at least.
 
#16
Tankers do not have seperate storage tanks fitted for the fuel that is to be dispensed, but most tanker types have some extra fuel tanks fitted. Typically, these are a permanent installation in the space that would be the baggage hold of an airliner (TriStar, KC10, KC135) or in the fuselage where the passengers would have sat (VC10 Mk2 and Mk3). These tanks increase the total capacity of the fuel system and the tanker can either use the fuel or give it away. Some tankers have no extra tanks and rely solely on the capacity that was installed when the aircraft was designed (VC10 Mk1 and Mk4, KDC-10).

The Airbus 330-200 airliner can hold 111-tonnes of fuel in it's tanks and the tanker modification will not increase this capacity. This allows the holds to be used for baggage and freight as originally designed and much less of the aircraft's capability as a transport is compromised.

The UK has decided that 111-tonnes is a large enough capacity that the aircraft does not need the capability to refuel in-flight. This is based on experience with the TriStar, where the 120-tonne capacity so rarely ever needed topping-up that the training was not worth the expense, and the probes were removed. The VC10 retained the capability to receive fuel as it's smaller load (80-tonnes) sometimes needed supplementing. On the other hand the USAF found that even though the KC-10 has a massive 140-tonne capacity, it's ability to take on extra fuel was extremely valuable. Thus they insisted that their next tanker must also be able to refuel. The UK will lose a lot of flexibility when it has no tankers that are capable of refuelling.
 
#17
Does anyone know if the US decision to use more or less the same aircraft will impact on delivery dates etc or do you think Air Tanker will be able to sneak in before the rush. I wasnt just thinking about the airframes but the small but essential stuff that might only come from a small number of subcontractors
 
R

rogermellie

Guest
#18
another PFI. Why oh why do they keep signing up to these things they are a complete waste of money and always go way over the original costs.
Does my head in
 
#19
Magic_Mushroom said:
It's great news that we've finally ordered the things; our VC10s and Tristars are long past their sell by date.

However, I share reservations regarding a lease arrangement for such an important AAR/AT asset. It is also a major error for them not to be capable of receiving fuel via AAR.

However, let's get the things in asap!!
They'll just retro fit it 6 years down the road for 4 times the cost of building it in now. :oops:
 

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