Going against the perceived view here

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by ugly, Nov 14, 2007.

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  1. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Now with all the press about the covenant (of which I had heard nothing before the latest foreign adventurism by the clowns in the westminster big top) being broken I have been thinking back to my service during the 1980's and into the 90's.
    The covenant wasnt discussed once during my service. If you were injured on ops (a reasonable chance) you got a pension and compensation.
    I do remember a tarrif of about £100 per stitch for public order injuries and a pension review board before discharge.
    Injuries were expected although unwelcome and no one was really interested in how wounded you were or why and where it happened.
    Yes the Mil hospitals looked after you and would also look after retired personnel but public exposure to casualties from over 30 years of COIN ops in NI was minimal unless outrages happened on the mainland. Even then Horses and dogs got more press time!
    To all serving soldiers and especially wounded ones, you are not hated or despised by your fellow Britons, yes you are a political embarressment but then wounded troops always have been.
    No one wants to see the butchers bill being wheeled down the high street, thats why the Legion was formed wasnt it, to stop wounded ex soldiers from begging.
    I know this is of little compensation to those families looking after disabled sons and daughters from conflicts but by using the system you neednt have to use your life savings etc unless you really want to!
    A friend of mine and my ex coy clerk is on 100% disability and does alright.
    If he was my son I wouldnt lock him away in a home, maybe some respite care for a break but I would look after my sons despite the level of care needed.
    Yes I would want the available home help and I would make the most of it but that surely has to be better than visiting a grave every year!
    Lets have less pontificating about Broken Covenant as this is now in danger of being used solely as a stick to get a bigger defence budget by leading ex seniors who probably work for BAE now.
    If there isnt the money to sustain a war on any front then we certainly shouldnt be fighting it.
    We are not as a nation at war, there is no rationing, conscription or blackout.
    I am not saying do your job, come home and shut up about it! I have been there and know what it is like but to be honest the country will sit in wonderment at the furore that certain elements of the press will make when stories of MRSA break about troops in NHS but lets face it, the state this country is in you are lucky not to die in an NHS hospital especially in Kent.
    There will come a point when the public will get fed up, we are not there yet, a trip to the war memorials on sunday shows that but soon with all the negative press it wont.
    Chin up folks, we still support you and are thankful that we arent doing it.
    I normally dont attract much attention in normal clothes but on Sunday I was in Blazer and tie at the kids bowling county trials waiting for my cab to town and was putting up my Got same Medal.
    The looks of respect from other parents was really heartening.
    I thank you folks for that but be aware that should the moaning continue the public will tire and thats just the way it is I'm afraid. Thats just society, its got feck all to do with any covenant real or imagined.

    Slag me off if you wish, I expect this to provoke commentrs and even arguments but its the way I see it I'm afraid.
    20 years of civvy life doesnt stop me being an ex serviceman, it just allows me to see things from the majority view.
    I have really struggled to understand the foreign policy of this country since I matured and especially since Maggie left.
    I cant see the sense in gettinvolved in any foreign adventures in any of the countries we have sacrificed our lives in including FRY.
    Let Europe sort its problems out, we are not america and cant do this on the shoestring budget that those misers in westminster insist on!
    Fire at will!
    Edited to try and make this easier to read!
  2. Sorry. I tried to read that but the spacing made my eyes hurt.

    Please EDIT it to make it easier to read.
  3. No incoming from me, A very good post and I tend to agree with you
  4. After wading through the enormous amount you had written I feel I have a point to make.

    Due to the leaps forwards in medical treatment, and the speed at which soldiers can now be evacuated from the theatre of operations, service personnel are surviving with wounds which would have killed them even as little as 5yrs ago!

    The number of soldiers with significant multiple injuries who have survived and are surviving is rising all the time. Unfortunately the powers that be haven't increased the grants or pensions to relect this. For example, you have a 22yr old soldier who has been paralysed and has severe brain injuries so he can't look after himself. A few years ago the soldier would probably have died from his injuries, but he survives, and is expected to live up to 40yrs longer or more.

    The burden is being placed squarely on the families of these soldiers, which has become even greater with the closure of the military hospitals which used to provide respite care at any time of year for those families.

    The covenant has been broken - and from your post, it seems that it has been repeatedly broken by various Governments for years. It is time for this to be addressed directly to the Government to force them to keep their word.
  5. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    I am not arguing some points as I agree with a lot of what you have said Lesleycape but there is no difference between now and when 8 of my comrades were murdered in 1988 in the way that the Govt has treated them and the wounded.
    There is a page on The LI re united website recording the pain and suffering of an 18 year old that will live possibly to retirement age. I cannot post a link as it is private for logged in members.
    There was no mention of covenant ever back then, when did this get started?
    I am disheartened to see dead service personnel in coffins and am encouraged by the reovery rate nowadays but the pensions and compo paid out nowadays is much more than we saw in those days.
    A friend who was seriously injured in a blue on blue was at the time we felt generously compensated by the RUC and received a service pension plus disability.
    Yes just under £100k was a lot to a 20 year injured private but nothing after a few years.
    I too have seen too many friends in need of help from combat stress but the help available seems to be 100 times better than 20 years ago.
    This isnt sour grapes but we had no covenat to speak of. I sknow of former soldiers of my age who are cared for by a combination of home help and respite care. It does work.
    I do get dissapointed when the families of wounded youngster seem determined (opinion drawn from press not people) to demand more than they are allowed/entitled too without explaining that the money they will receive will be supplemented by the state in support financially (home help allowances and DLA).
    Knowing wounded friends from back then who were abandoned by the country (for that read press) who have scraped through in spite of the system.
    To use the other side of the coin 1945 brought us a welfare state and the theory should mean that no one slips through the net.
    That was hard fought for and if rules are applied fairly and evenly then no one should go without. If they do then the charities pick up the slack, get them the help they need.
    Now what is needed is more awareness of the problems faced by these lads and lasses and proper help given to people who are possibly too proud to look for it themselves.
    How much money is unclaimed? Millions and its budgeted for so they need advice!
  6. I would say, if you have joined the Armed Forces in the last 5 years, you joined with your eyes wide open. If the Govt does not do an awful lot more, very quickly, UKAF will be on it's knees, regardless of what British public think or don't think.

    If you don't want to take the risk of getting severely injured or killed, don't join up-period.
  7. "I would say, if you have joined the Armed Forces in the last 5 years, you joined with your eyes wide open. If the Govt does not do an awful lot more, very quickly, UKAF will be on it's knees, regardless of what British public think or don't think.

    If you don't want to take the risk of getting severely injured or killed, don't join up-period."

    Well i can see ur a cnut...Sums up what is wrong with this country.
    Do you really think they join with no idea of what is happening in the world>?..

    yes they need A1 care and treatment .. and as much help as neccesary..
    You should be proud that our 19-22 year olds are joining and Fighting for each other.I used to think they were all the playstation generation but over the last 18 months i have changed my view.
  8. And do you really think anything is going to change quickly? Afg is going to get a lot dirtier next year and there is no prospect of any let up in op tempo or any shiny new military hospitals on the horizon. A few years ago a full career in UKAF was an appealing prospect. I am merely pointing out the obvious. The first poster got it right. Instead of calling me a cnut go work out the odds of getting injured or killed on ops in Afg. If it was my kids I would advise them against. This Govt doesn't give a s**t, doesn't take anything away from the guys doing the biz out there. My hat goes off to them, but don't be surprised by the alarming recruitment and retention figures. And it is going to get a whole lot worse.
  9. The whole point of the covenant is that there is a risk of being severely injured or killed - so the country as a whole - represented by the Government of the day has the duty to up hold it.

    Police Officers and Fire Fighters also risk getting severely injured or killed in the line of duty - yet they get paid far more in compensation than Service personnel. :x
  10. Seconded. UKAF need to be treated as equals.
  11. Ugly said
    I believe the covenant has been there for many, many years. Perhaps it wasn't widely known then and it is now due to the computer age, and the easy access (even while on ops) of getting information. Many soldiers, especially the younger ones, don't usually put themselves out to try and find out information, generally wanting to get through the days work and then get down the pub. I don't see today's generation of soldiers being different to those from the 70's, 80's or 90's. :wink:
  12. There is a risk of the country getting tired of perceived bleating service personnel however I don't share that view. The wars may get harder with a higher casualty rate and if nothing is said and conditions are not dramatically improved we will loose anyway, recruitment and retention will dry up. Mass communication of the type we never had in the 80s will ensure that even the dullest realise that the services are not a good long term career prospect.
  13. It is not really an IF anymore:

    Forces weakened by troop shortages
    By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
    Last Updated: 6:59am GMT 14/11/2007

    The ability of the Armed Forces to continue fighting at present levels in Iraq and Afghanistan is "unlikely to be met", the Ministry of Defence has admitted.

    The lack of troops and the "continuing high level" of operations mean that the MoD does not expect to have enough units ready for deployment by next April.

    The military is short of 6,000 troops across the Army, RAF and Royal Navy. Commanders are said to be worried about assembling an 8,000-strong brigade for Afghanistan this time next year.

    In the latest quarterly performance paper, the MoD admits that 42 per cent of units reported "critical or serious weaknesses" in coming up to strength for operations.

  14. Oirignal Poster is right - and yes I am still serving and have done ops.
  15. 'If it was my kids I would advise them against.'

    Unfortunately, and reluctantly, nigegilb, seconded. Speaking as an ex-soldier with two fine lads, I couldn't today advise them to go in the services - and I wouldn't have said that to them 10 years ago. Yes, I came out with a few scars that I didn't have when I went in but I got a lot out of the forces and wouldn't have missed my time in for anything. However, despite a Labour government being in at the time, most politicians at that time had served in one form or another unlike today when we have a forces hating Prime Minister and his cronies who mouth platitudes about 'our wonderful and professional services' while knifing them in the back with the next breath.