Globalisation uber alles

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Not that the UK’s wealth wasn’t built on the long term suppression of freedoms.
Quite the opposite.

We had a remarkable reputation, even amongst our avowed enemies, of upholding common law often to our own disadvantage.

Though notably one ideological aspect of globalism is a hatred for one's own country and a strange belif that anything foreign is better.
 
Quite the opposite.

We had a remarkable reputation, even amongst our avowed enemies, of upholding common law often to our own disadvantage.

Though notably one ideological aspect of globalism is a hatred for one's own country and a strange belif that anything foreign is better.
And the blinkered belief that one’s own country is perfect is one notable ideological aspect of the isolationist xenophobe.

If you had a time machine, I doubt you’d find the average indigenous Tasmanian would have much respect for the way the British upheld the law. Nor would the average slave on a Nevis sugar plantation. Nor, more relevant to China, would the average Chinese think the forced imposition of opium on to their country.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Cucks will cuck.
 
Then we are talking of different things.

Globalism is clearly an ideological part of many lefty or Maoist movements. Climate ecowank, feminism, international socialism, multiculturalism and anything that promotes international bodies with direct power over the nation state.

You appear to be confusing globalisation with mere international trade.

You also appear to be equating international trade entirely with comparative advantage, which likely doesn't even hold true on a pure cost basis.

Once you factor in strategic factors the risk isn't worth the reduced cost, if that even exists.

Hence the analogy I drew between the fallacies of distributed computing and ideological globalism holds true when you consider the strategic needs of a nation state.
To start with, you are confusing Globalism, and Globalisation. They are not the same.
In simple terms, globalism is a theory that seeks to describe and explain the complex network of connections that span multi-continental distances. Globalisation is a measure of the degree of globalism.

Globalism is nothing new; Silk Road trade, the spread of the semitic religions, and the Roman and British Empires and the spread of English are all examples of globalism long before globalism was defined.

Whilst there are globalist idealogues, the main driver of globalism is and always has been capitalist trade. China didn’t come out of isolation for idealogical reason.....
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
I've seen this movie before...

Something to do with the EU being merely about trade.

Tony Blair didn't open the flood gates to mass immigration due to international trade, he did so because his ideology was multicultural feminism.

The pleasing thing about Covid is that people as a whole now see through this ideological nonsense.

Your ideology is dead and the paper thin word games which underwrite it become ever more obvious to the man on the street.
 
If we think back to the Japanese car imports in the early 70's they gained a terrible reputation for being absolute pieces of crap [and that was from people buying British cars] look at them now, world leaders.

One could argue they set the standard for all to follow on the other side Chinese manufacturing is at the Japanese standards of 1976.
I was wandering through a shopping mall the other day and there were a couple of nice shiny SUVs being promoted, and as men tend to do I strolled around, opening doors and kicking tyres, pretending I knew a damn thing. My wife, however, took one look at the badge and laughed, "It's Chinese, who would buy a Chinese car? Everyone would laugh at you!" I said nothing, remembering my mother saying the same thing about Japanese cars 50 odd years ago after my father said he would never buy British again as he railed about the rust-bucket Rover 3500 that was rapidly falling apart in the driveway.

Today I wouldn't drive anything other than a Toyota or Honda (well, I do still like my Mercs).

My current house was built 25 years ago by the previous owner, a property developer, and he only put the best in. The brass locks and keys proudly state they were made in Reading PA by the Baldwin lock company. It's the same with the air-conditioning system, we got it serviced a while back and the technician almost wept at the sight of a thing of beauty, it also was US made. Of course the problem was he couldn't get any spare parts for it today but he said it was the finest piece of gear he had seen in ages. However, it was broken in my home office and eventually the only thing for it was to install a cheap and nasty, plastic air-conditioning unit built in China. You know what? It works, it's over my head right now and is cooling the room, when it gives up in five or ten years time, I'll replace it with another.

That's the problem, for the vast majority of the stuff we need, Chinese junk will do the job, at least for long enough until all the other manufacturers have long gone bust.
 
China has not been a cheap place to mnf for years, many Chinese companies I know mnf in Ethiopia to re import to the China market, not the International one. A whole raft of complexities are going to get China to start to retrench, as will be with the rest of us.
China has been actively moving away now, for some time, from low end manufacturing and is happy to let a significant proportion of that business get moved overseas to other lower cost centres. As part of 'China 2025' the shift is towards higher-value products and services, particularly technology and precision engineering. There are areas of tech where China is already world leader and the government will do all that they can to catch up in other areas.

So for all of the bleeding hearts who are promising not to buy their kids 'made in China' plastic tat this Christmas, they don't really care.
 
I was wandering through a shopping mall the other day and there were a couple of nice shiny SUVs being promoted, and as men tend to do I strolled around, opening doors and kicking tyres, pretending I knew a damn thing. My wife, however, took one look at the badge and laughed, "It's Chinese, who would buy a Chinese car? Everyone would laugh at you!" I said nothing, remembering my mother saying the same thing about Japanese cars 50 odd years ago after my father said he would never buy British again as he railed about the rust-bucket Rover 3500 that was rapidly falling apart in the driveway.

Today I wouldn't drive anything other than a Toyota or Honda (well, I do still like my Mercs).

My current house was built 25 years ago by the previous owner, a property developer, and he only put the best in. The brass locks and keys proudly state they were made in Reading PA by the Baldwin lock company. It's the same with the air-conditioning system, we got it serviced a while back and the technician almost wept at the sight of a thing of beauty, it also was US made. Of course the problem was he couldn't get any spare parts for it today but he said it was the finest piece of gear he had seen in ages. However, it was broken in my home office and eventually the only thing for it was to install a cheap and nasty, plastic air-conditioning unit built in China. You know what? It works, it's over my head right now and is cooling the room, when it gives up in five or ten years time, I'll replace it with another.

That's the problem, for the vast majority of the stuff we need, Chinese junk will do the job, at least for long enough until all the other manufacturers have long gone bust.
Lots of Chinese cars now appearing on the roads here. It’s a second coming for their motor industry; ten years ago, they flogged garbage than fell apart and the dealers went bust on the warranty claims.

Now, MGs and LDV are sold in the same dealership as Volvo and Jeep by a dealer who also has a Jaguar Landrover franchise o the opposite side of the road. The quality of modern Chinese export cars is hard to discern from the last remaining GM cars sold here, which are Holden badged Buicks.

Depreciation on a Haval or MG might be stratospheric, but when it starts at half the price of the nearest competitor, has a 5* ANCAP rating and a 7 year unlimited mileage warranty, does it matter?

No I don’t drive one, but I can see why people do.
 
Some have realised that when they open a production line in China, 1 year later a Chinese company will open close by & somehow or other will have acquired all the necessary information to produce the same product but at half the price. Only the most naive will take new technologies to China for production purposes now.
OK, they are smart, but maybe too smart for their own good. They want to equal the USA militarily, including the Navy. They want a space program. They want to buy everything everywhere, this is a balloon waiting to bust, God help us all when that eventually happens.

My first post on ARSSE, & it leaves me feeling a bit depressed .
Have a like to raise your spirits a bit.
 
I’m not sure that parallel is valid.

Globalisation is not a ideology; it’s a framework to understand and benefit from the inevitable consequences of man’s ingenuity and initiative. Politicians and leaders aren’t managing globalisation because they can’t. Short of repressing individual and collective freedoms, there’s no way leaders can stop us buying the products we want to buy from the people we want to buy from.

It’s also nothing new. For fear of repeating myself, Adam Smith defined the basic concepts that drive globalisation well over two hundred years ago.
With respect perhaps he meant something different. There’s a difference between Corporations with a global reach such as the East India company and corporations whIch control economies. All ideologies contain frameworks of one sort or another. But if we understand the East India company, we understand Chinese ambitions.
 
I think that's a more general worry. For the first time since the War of Independence, the USA is up against an economic peer. The Chinese have been quite smart in their use of economic/soft power and multi-national organisations with Chinese interests are likely to prove just as willing to cheerlead as organisations with strong European commercial interests were willing to support Remain.
I've said a few times before in various threads that China has comprehensively outplayed the West in every regard. There will have to be a complete change of mindset in the West if there is any hope of avoiding Chinese dominance within the next decade or two. Unfortunately, from a European perspective we seem uninterested in recognising that China poses a significant threat and the US seem completely unable to match China at their game. China won't directly engage the US in open conflict until they are absolutely certain they will win, and they're catching up fast.
 

Bob65

War Hero
High-grade and complex steel are different beasts; the expertise and quality control required make it worth doing here.
But can you make that steel if you don't make the lower grades as well? Do you get the economies of scale necessary, do you have a "feeder" industry in which to train people?

Economists and politicians - who know nothing about industry - told us that only "low grade" manufacturing would be going to China and all the high-end stuff would remain here. But any engineer will tell you that a factory itself is a complex machine - often orders of magnitude more complex than the products it manufactures - and that operating a factory is a highly developed skill, and once you lose the ability to generate that capability, you can't sustain the high-end stuff either. Conversely, once a competitor acquires the skill of designing and operating factories, they soon realise that designing the manufactured products is the easy part.

And here we are today.
 

bob231

War Hero
But can you make that steel if you don't make the lower grades as well? Do you get the economies of scale necessary, do you have a "feeder" industry in which to train people?
In a word, "yes".

I'm not a steelworker and materials science wasn't my strongest suit. However, the process - as I understand it - is similar whether you're making steel for cheap I-beams or highly specialised stuff for nuclear forgings. What is different is the degree of precision required, both in the design of the factory and its operation (agree yours on the relative complexity of product and factory, BTW).

What Sheffield also retains is the larger and more complex equipment required for shaping specialist steel and doing so at a standard that makes it fit for the buyer's requirement.

What it no longer has is the ability to extrude miles of bog-standard I-beams or stamp out steel plate. These aren't particularly complicated (as in they are getting on for something you could do in your garden, albeit to a lower grade and slowly) and they just can't be done economically here.

There are no meaningful economies of scale in the process. You need tremendous amounts of power for heat, which will massively overshadow scale-based efficiencies.
 
But can you make that steel if you don't make the lower grades as well? Do you get the economies of scale necessary, do you have a "feeder" industry in which to train people?
Yes you can. Actually more; you can’t make high grade steel in the same place as you make low grade steel.

The vast majority of steel is low grade, with significant quantities of recycled steel included. It’s entirely commoditised requiring only a significant quantity of (relatively) low grade ore and cheap coal. Price is everything, which means ready access to vast quantities of ore and coal.

The highest grade steels; medical instruments and the like are made from virgin steel. No recycling, high grade ores etc etc. Quality is everything; you need access to small (relatively) quantities of premium ingredients.

European steel industries have moved to high grade steels because they can’t compete in the commoditised market. It’s simply impossible to manufacture in commercially viable quantities; the rail infrastructure to move the raw materials doesn’t and can’t exist. Europe doesn’t have the raw materials.

Even Australia’s once burgeoning raw steel industry has largely gone; it’s cheaper to ship coal and ore to China and ship back railway lines than to make them here.

My personal view is that India will emerge as the world’s dominant raw steel supplier. Unlike China, it has vast reserves of both coal and iron ore.
 
The core problem with Chinese steel is that it is usually an alloy steel to take benefit from Chinese export trade rebates. EU specifications for structural steel apply only to non-alloy steels. With few exceptions, this is entirely manageable if engineers understand what is going on and specify the correct welding processes, coatings etc.

The big problem is that there are too few engineers supervising construction now. There aren’t enough qualifying and many of us have walked into other more lucrative roles. So contractors supply inappropriate steel for the specification and it isn’t identified until too late.

Chinese steel standards differ significantly from European and US standards. It’s not that they are bad; just different. Their steel industry is modern, well automated and regulated. The Chinese supplier will have provided steel to the specification he contracted for. He’s not ripped anyone off.

Western steel companies make a lot of noise about the poor quality of Chinese steel. It’s noise though: the steel is manufactured to standard. It’s just that the standards aren’t the same and many people in the industry don’t understand the differences.
Very interesting and its not a field I have any knowledge in... One supposes that the different standards are intentionally ignored, due to the lower costs and this is one place that the government needs to have a hard think about.

We saw in Grenfell what happens when people put 'looks nice' and wow its cheap, before safety.
 
To start with, you are confusing Globalism, and Globalisation. They are not the same.
In simple terms, globalism is a theory that seeks to describe and explain the complex network of connections that span multi-continental distances. Globalisation is a measure of the degree of globalism.

Globalism is nothing new; Silk Road trade, the spread of the semitic religions, and the Roman and British Empires and the spread of English are all examples of globalism long before globalism was defined.

Whilst there are globalist idealogues, the main driver of globalism is and always has been capitalist trade. China didn’t come out of isolation for idealogical reason.....
True enough and my original posted thread, was originally pointed towards where do we go NOW.... Certainly enough funny money in the system and corona disappearing in September, we could probably refloat the global economy, but doesn't that mean, we have learnt zero lessons from this year.

I suppose, how far can nation state governments continue to subsidise the downsides of those complex network of connections. Certainly the bank of last resort is tapped out and China in particular is the figure head for the globalist network and companies will find it hard to justify trading with them, without some swingeing tariffs.
 
Very interesting and its not a field I have any knowledge in... One supposes that the different standards are intentionally ignored, due to the lower costs and this is one place that the government needs to have a hard think about.

We saw in Grenfell what happens when people put 'looks nice' and wow its cheap, before safety.
I don’t think it’s the case that Standards are intentionally ignored. It’s more the standard level of understanding of those who are in decision making positions is ignorant. The cult of generalism is all pervading.

By construction industry is by far the biggest consumer of engineered steel. There are nowhere near enough engineers working in construction, either design side but particularly supervising on site.
 

Bob65

War Hero
Every day a school day! Thanks, other Bob's :)

Nevertheless, I still believe that steel-making is strategic and countries ought to see beyond the short term commercial side even if it doesn't seem to make immediate economic sense. And manufacturing in general.
 
I don’t think it’s the case that Standards are intentionally ignored. It’s more the standard level of understanding of those who are in decision making positions is ignorant. The cult of generalism is all pervading.

By construction industry is by far the biggest consumer of engineered steel. There are nowhere near enough engineers working in construction, either design side but particularly supervising on site.
The old Imperial Triangular trade was marvellous for the wealthy and shipping industry, less so for the slaves, American Indians, our diets and the money made, corrupted our institutions enough to see the first british empire collapse with the departure of the Americas.

Globalisation has even worse outcomes for many and the theory is no longer untested and has serious consequences for our economy, health and the damage to democracy was simply not worth the cost benefit.
 

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