Globalisation uber alles

The idea of globalisation came from the realisation that what set the US, western Europe and Australia apart from the rest of the world was not wealth, some countries in Africa and Asia have wealth that dwarfed many European countries, but how equally shared out (up to a point) that wealth was. An ordinary working man in those countries could have a house, a car, take a foreign holiday and as such was happy and productive, if only we could share that with benighted third world shiteholes the whole world would be as plump and prosperous as the West.

But what this came down to in the end was simply taking all those nice well paying jobs from working class Americans and Europeans (note I don't go for the usual trope "white working class" as the biggest sufferers in the US were African-American workers) and sending them overseas.

When the only people complaining were working class people, no one needed to pay any attention to them, especially as the middle classes were getting richer and able to buy even more nice things cheap from overseas (including servants). But this is no longer so, vast swathes of middle class jobs are now disappearing. Huge parts of accountancy, medical and even legal work can now be sent to India to be done overnight and returned the next morning for a tenth of the price. Other jobs are going, technical and design work, we read in another thread that airline pilots are being outsourced, this is going to hurt the opinion makers very soon.

We could ignore the Sun readers when their jobs were being lost, when the Daily Telegraph and Guardian readers are losing their earnings to India and the Philippines, and that is happening, that's when we will see the abandonment of globalisation and a new era of protectionism.
Some times you talk a lot of shiit Mike. Other times you come out with some real gems. This is one of them. Well done.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
I find the whole globalisation fear thing puzzling. Adam Smith identified that nations should specialise in the things that they are good at three hundred years ago. Britain was largely built on globalisation. The only thing that ha a changed is that it’s no longer the centre of the globe.
Ricardo rather than Smith.

Though globalisation has gone far further than mere comparative advantage, outsourcing being ideological and coupled with an almost psychotic distain for countrymen of a different class or intersecton.

Litterally beggar thy neighbour, where normally the neighbour is taken to be anoher country.

Whilst itself a product of Liberalism the problem arises that oligarchs and corporations with no affiliation to anything but themselves wield great power without even contributing much or anything in the way of tax.

From the £25k tax that Google declared in the UK to the malign influence paid for by Soros, to an unquestioning zeal for mass immigration or the huge part of Eire's economy which Apple represents but contributes nothing to.... That Citibank nominated Obama's cabinet or the attempts to influence elections by social media companies.

All these problems result from a system which irrationally prioritises GDP and gives representation without taxation whilst generating profits which are only used for share buybacks to increase director bonusses. Boeing for instance needs a $50 billion bailout after spending more than $50 billion on share buy backs...

I'm no lefty anticapitalist type however globalisation is not merely international trade and the unappreciated risks have become publically apparent recently.
 
Ricardo rather than Smith.

Though globalisation has gone far further than mere comparative advantage, outsourcing being ideological and coupled with an almost psychotic distain for countrymen of a different class or intersecton.

Litterally beggar thy neighbour, where normally the neighbour is taken to be anoher country.

Whilst itself a product of Liberalism the problem arises that oligarchs and corporations with no affiliation to anything but themselves wield great power without even contributing much or anything in the way of tax.

From the £25k tax that Google declared in the UK to the malign influence paid for by Soros, to an unquestioning zeal for mass immigration or the huge part of Eire's economy which Apple represents but contributes nothing to.... That Citibank nominated Obama's cabinet or the attempts to influence elections by social media companies.

All these problems result from a system which irrationally prioritises GDP and gives representation without taxation whilst generating profits which are only used for share buybacks to increase director bonusses. Boeing for instance needs a $50 billion bailout after spending more than $50 billion on share buy backs...

I'm no lefty anticapitalist type however globalisation is not merely international trade and the unappreciated risks have become publically apparent recently.
Pedant hat on. It was Smith who introduced the concept of absolute advantage in The Wealth of Nations. It was Torrens who first explained the theory of Comparative Advantage in 1815. Riccardo uses the concept On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation although there are plenty who believe it was his editor James Mill who introduced it. It’s not found in any other of Riccardo’s work. Pedant hat off.

I would argue that modern globalisation has brought opportunities and wealth that were unimaginable even 50 years ago. I’d also suggest that modern corporations wield far less power and wield it in a far more benign way than their predecessors. The East India Company wielded effectively unchecked power on behalf of a tiny unelected elite. At least today’s modern public company is held to account by the markets.
 
Some german companies have discovered that and now manufacture in Germany. Using the latest in smart machinery and robots they don't have to worry too much about labour costs. Import duties and huge transport costs are also a thing of the past.
No argument from me on that one.

I would also add in that German manufacturers were falling foul ( and getting caught out by ) Country of origin rules.
 
Well it looks like Mad Muttie has caved in to Macron's gallic charm. I wonder how the hard working German taxpayers like @Drilligraf will enjoy bailing out France and Club Med to the tune of 500 billion. Thats grants (free money) not loans. Most will be coming from Germany and by international loans meaning more debt for Germany.
I'll pull a B_L here ;)

Wait and see

Four EU countries dubbing themselves the "frugal four" presented their own proposal Saturday for post-coronavirus economic recovery, restating their rejection of any jointly-issued debt instruments.

The group, comprising Austria, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden, wants emergency help for badly affected countries to take the form of one-off loans which must be agreed within two years, according to a proposal published by the office of Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz.
That fat lady is far from singing.
 
I'll pull a B_L here ;)

Wait and see



That fat lady is far from singing.
Well it looks like it is down to Germany and the Republic of Ireland then. The Irish are always boasting about how high there GDP is. Time to pay something back for all those millions received since 1973. How sad that we have left and won't be able to chip in.
 
While I don't disagree with bringing certain essential manufacturing home there is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread.

Globalism wasn't a Ponzi scheme it was driven by Capitalism and the obsessive desire to generate higher profit margins year after year. Are shareholders prepared to give up billions of $$'s profit every year?

It was also driven by consumerism and the desire for cheaper products. Will consumers just except higher prices or do without?

It was also driven by trade markets, if you buy this off us we will buy this off you.

Americas Soybean market is a prime example, the farmers need the Chinese market to survive. 90% of U.S Haricot Beans are purchased by the U.K.

Does bringing manufacturing home also include Japan, S. Korea, the U.S.A, and the other car manufacturers closing down overseas production and consumers being satisfied with just home built vehicles?

Globalism may include 'Excepti
onism', China may even be replaced by Africa but Globalism will never be eradicated completely.
Globalism does not need to be eradicated completely, and as you say it couldnt be.

But China has got to learn that allowing a virus to jump species and infect the world - and then sell you a mask to protect yourself from the virus - is an unacceptable way of doing business.

Stop buying Made in China.
 
Stop buying Made in China.
I agree, but sometimes easier said than done. A couple of years ago the Boss needed a new hair dryer, I looked high and low, Germany, France and Britain, the only hair dryers available were all made in China.
I'll quite happily buy made in Europe, eg my Bosch washing machine and dryer were made in Poland, no problem there. My german coffee machine was made in Portugal, no problem there either.
 
I think that's a more general worry. For the first time since the War of Independence, the USA is up against an economic peer. The Chinese have been quite smart in their use of economic/soft power and multi-national organisations with Chinese interests are likely to prove just as willing to cheerlead as organisations with strong European commercial interests were willing to support Remain.
But lets not forget that when Nixon went to China, the Communist regime had been helping the NVA to expel the concept of a free market by the US. Nor had Mao forgiven the US for supporting the Nationalists.

A decade earlier we'd had the communist Russians trying to overthrow the US in a phoney war they'd had since '48.
 
I agree, but sometimes easier said than done. A couple of years ago the Boss needed a new hair dryer, I looked high and low, Germany, France and Britain, the only hair dryers available were all made in China.
I'll quite happily buy made in Europe, eg my Bosch washing machine and dryer were made in Poland, no problem there. My german coffee machine was made in Portugal, no problem there either.
Where and when we have no option but to buy from China - needs must.

At the same time it should set alarm bells ringing loudly.
 
I agree, but sometimes easier said than done. A couple of years ago the Boss needed a new hair dryer, I looked high and low, Germany, France and Britain, the only hair dryers available were all made in China.
I'll quite happily buy made in Europe, eg my Bosch washing machine and dryer were made in Poland, no problem there. My german coffee machine was made in Portugal, no problem there either.
I think in a year or two your quest will become much easier, all of the perceived advantages of manufacturing in China are going to disappear quite soon, that and the fact it almost impossible to get money out. Outfits like General Motors, BMW, Vestas have billions of profits trapped in China, they cannot repatriate them but still declare them on the annual reports as being just like all other profits so bonus and promotions all round!
 
Does bringing manufacturing home also include Japan, S. Korea, the U.S.A, and the other car manufacturers closing down overseas production and consumers being satisfied with just home built vehicles?
A month ago the Japanese Gov created a 2.5 Billion USD fund to assist any Japanese firm wanting to relocate out of China and to set up in either Japan or Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia etc. It was heavily oversuscribed and will be increased by the Japanese Gov.

This act has really shaken the Chinese although the way their media treats Japan it should have not been a surprise.

S Korea will remain in China I doubt the US will to the extent it is, certainly in cars as they hardly sell any these days.
 
Well it looks like it is down to Germany and the Republic of Ireland then. The Irish are always boasting about how high there GDP is. Time to pay something back for all those millions received since 1973. How sad that we have left and won't be able to chip in.
Ah but there is a difference between the two and I'll wager Ireland can't compete. Ireland, like Luxemburg and Switzerland have high GDP's because of the Tax regimes and the money stashed there. That can soon change and does not really count as money earned. In the same vein, money stashed in offshoring islands does not equate to standards of living either. Equally a High GDP can be a accounted for by having a high income as opposed to low population.

Moreover imho Perceptions change. Germany has been caught out massively in dieselgate and only has slice of Britain as it's car market now that that it has killed off the competition. In a perfect world that should equate to almost perfect product, but in fact product has suffered. From my perspective I think that the concept of car ownership in terms of desirability has shifted. I simply can't think of a car I WANT to own.
 
A month ago the Japanese Gov created a 2.5 Billion USD fund to assist any Japanese firm wanting to relocate out of China and to set up in either Japan or Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia etc. It was heavily oversuscribed and will be increased by the Japanese Gov.

This act has really shaken the Chinese although the way their media treats Japan it should have not been a surprise.

S Korea will remain in China I doubt the US will to the extent it is, certainly in cars as they hardly sell any these days.
Just a view that if we are moving into a depression, then some urgent summit of nations is required and a relaxation of tariffs, but with specific and very HEAVY tariffs placed on nations who fail to operate a free market and do not meet a democratic threshold.
 
S Korea will remain in China I doubt the US will to the extent it is, certainly in cars as they hardly sell any these days.
Some may disagree with that assessment.
Foreign car makers report higher U.S. sales Published: Dec. 3, 2019 at 1:11 p.m. ET

Major foreign auto makers including Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. reported higher vehicle sales in the U.S. for November.

American Honda's sales rose about 11% from the same period a year earlier to 133,952 vehicles. Sales of the company's namesake brand climbed just over 12% to 119,470 vehicles. Acura sales increased 3% to 14,482 vehicles.

Toyota said Tuesday that its North American division sold 207,857 vehicles in its latest month, a 9% increase on a volume basis and a 5% rise on a daily selling rate, compared with the same period a year earlier.
The Japanese auto maker said its Lexus brand posted its best-ever November with 30,093 vehicles sold, a nearly 14% increase from a year ago. The company's RAV4 compact sport-utility vehicle, Tacoma midsize truck and Corolla sedan also had stronger gains.

South Korea's Hyundai Motor Co.'s America division reported total November sales of 60,601 units, a 6% increase compared with a year ago.

and

Millions of vehicles made by foreign companies are produced in the United States.

Here is a list of foreign manufacturers with plants in the U.S. and the vehicles they produce.


Toyota (Japanese)

  • Georgetown, KY - Camry, Avalon, Lexus ES350
  • San Antonio, TX - Tacoma, Tundra
  • Blue Springs, MS - Corolla
  • Princeton, IN - Sienna, Highlander, Sequoia
Nissan (Japanese)

  • Canton, MS - Altima, Titan, Frontier, Murano, NV
  • Smyrna, TN - Altima, Maxima, Rogue, Leaf, Pathfinder, Infiniti QX60
Honda (Japanese)

  • Greensburg, IN - CR-V, Civic
  • East Liberty, OH - CR-V, Acura MDX, Acura RDX
  • Marysville, OH - Accord, Acura TLX, Acura NSX, Acura ILX
  • Lincoln, AL - Pilot, Ridgeline, Odyssey, Acura MDX
Subaru (Japanese)

  • Lafayette, IN - Legacy, Outback, Impreza
Volkswagen (German)


  • Chattanooga, TN - Passat, Atlas
BMW (German)

  • Greer, SC - X3, X4, X5, X6
Daimler (German)

  • Vance, AL - Mercedes-Benz M/GLE, Mercedes-Benz GLS, Mercedes-Benz C
  • Ladson, SC - Mercedes-Benz Metris, Mercedes-Benz Sprinter
Hyundai (South Korean)

  • Montgomery, AL - Sonata, Santa Fe, Elantra
Kia (South Korean)

  • West Point, GA - Optima, Sorento
Fiat Chrysler (Italian)

  • Belvidere, IL - Jeep Cherokee
  • Detroit, MI - Jeep Grand Cherokee, Dodge Durango
  • Toledo, OH - Jeep Wrangler
  • Warren, MI - Ram 1500
 
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C

Some may disagree with that assessment.
Foreign car makers report higher U.S. sales Published: Dec. 3, 2019 at 1:11 p.m. ET

Major foreign auto makers including Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. reported higher vehicle sales in the U.S. for November.

American Honda's sales rose about 11% from the same period a year earlier to 133,952 vehicles. Sales of the company's namesake brand climbed just over 12% to 119,470 vehicles. Acura sales increased 3% to 14,482 vehicles.

Toyota said Tuesday that its North American division sold 207,857 vehicles in its latest month, a 9% increase on a volume basis and a 5% rise on a daily selling rate, compared with the same period a year earlier.
The Japanese auto maker said its Lexus brand posted its best-ever November with 30,093 vehicles sold, a nearly 14% increase from a year ago. The company's RAV4 compact sport-utility vehicle, Tacoma midsize truck and Corolla sedan also had stronger gains.

South Korea's Hyundai Motor Co.'s America division reported total November sales of 60,601 units, a 6% increase compared with a year ago.
Sorry I was referring to sales in China not the US, which is about to be deluged in second hand rental car stock and defaulted auto loans. And that article quotes numbers from November last year which could well as be five years ago now.

The PRC car market is saturated by local brands, all reversed engineered, only high end foriegn marques carry enough face to be worth buying - Merc, JLR, Bently, Aston, RR, the Italian top end etc.
 
If we think back to the Japanese car imports in the early 70's they gained a terrible reputation for being absolute pieces of crap [and that was from people buying British cars] look at them now, world leaders.

One could argue they set the standard for all to follow on the other side Chinese manufacturing is at the Japanese standards of 1976.
 
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Globalism does not need to be eradicated completely, and as you say it couldnt be.

But China has got to learn that allowing a virus to jump species and infect the world - and then sell you a mask to protect yourself from the virus - is an unacceptable way of doing business.

Stop buying Made in China.
So if I’m managing a £100M project that is steel intensive, do I buy Chinese steel that is half the price of European equivalents. I can’t buy British steel; the products I need aren’t made in the UK any more.

To answer my own question, I’m going to buy the cheapest steel of the quality required. Which will almost certainly be Chinese.
 

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