Gitmos Good Work

#1
Here's something you'd be hard pressed to find the British and European media reporting...

FIVE years after the establisment of the Guantanamo prison camp, angry protests demand immediate release of the "unfortunate innocents." Are the protestors waving "Bushitler" signs right? Is Gitmo a hotbed of Inquisition-style torture that should be closed, and its detainees freed?

Last month, on my fifth and longest trip to Guantanamo, I toured the newly opened, ultra-modern Camp VI, a maximum-security prison modeled after a Michigan county prison. Combined with the holding capacity of Camp V, also very modern, it can hold just about all of Gitmo's reduced detainee population.

Reduced? Yes. Of the slightly fewer than 800 original detainees, most of whom were evacuated from Afghanistan's bloody battlefields in 2002, only about 350 remain. The balance have been transferred to home countries for case disposition or released outright.

Of those last, more than two dozen have resurfaced on the battlefield. A couple were ID'd from their corpses, others from propaganda videos released as terrorist recruiting tools. Of those transferred, some are in local prisons - but many more were released after perfunctory trials in their home countries, or no process at all.

Britain takes pride in having released its transferred Gitmo detainees within 18 hours and with no more judicial process than the time required for a compliant judge to sign some papers. Ironically, the U.K.-passport-holding few left in Guantanamo would happily slit the throats ofthe (mostly non-Muslim) Brits marching for their release. How do I know? Because they tell authorities exactly that.
New York Post
 
#3
maxi_77 said:
Mainly because we exported all our red necks a long time ago and guess where they all went.

Peter
Did you even bother to read what this former officer had to say or did you dismiss it out of hand because it's from an American source?
 
#4
Newbie_Girl said:
Here's something you'd be hard pressed to find the British and European media reporting...

FIVE years after the establisment of the Guantanamo prison camp, angry protests demand immediate release of the "unfortunate innocents." Are the protestors waving "Bushitler" signs right? Is Gitmo a hotbed of Inquisition-style torture that should be closed, and its detainees freed?

Last month, on my fifth and longest trip to Guantanamo, I toured the newly opened, ultra-modern Camp VI, a maximum-security prison modeled after a Michigan county prison. Combined with the holding capacity of Camp V, also very modern, it can hold just about all of Gitmo's reduced detainee population.

Reduced? Yes. Of the slightly fewer than 800 original detainees, most of whom were evacuated from Afghanistan's bloody battlefields in 2002, only about 350 remain. The balance have been transferred to home countries for case disposition or released outright.

Of those last, more than two dozen have resurfaced on the battlefield. A couple were ID'd from their corpses, others from propaganda videos released as terrorist recruiting tools. Of those transferred, some are in local prisons - but many more were released after perfunctory trials in their home countries, or no process at all.

Britain takes pride in having released its transferred Gitmo detainees within 18 hours and with no more judicial process than the time required for a compliant judge to sign some papers. Ironically, the U.K.-passport-holding few left in Guantanamo would happily slit the throats ofthe (mostly non-Muslim) Brits marching for their release. How do I know? Because they tell authorities exactly that.
New York Post
Don't you just love the spin?

I see he doesn't give any information about the lack of inquisition style torture, just says the place is modelled on a Michigan county prision, which if you read some of the stuff on the 'net about US Prisons means that it is now probably even worse than it was.

So about 25 out of the 450 released have turned out to be bad guys. This pardons them locking up 425 innocent people how exactly?

I am glad to see that the US "evacuated" these 800 people. Didn't arrest them or kidnap them but evacuated. Well thats ok then :pissedoff:
 
#5
I don't know how it started, but I got into the habit of googling journalists, and authors of OP-ED pieces. It's a habit I commend to all interested in building a picture beyond the story.

This piece was written by Lt.Col (Retd) Gordon Cucullu , former Green Beret and Vietnam SOG.

More on him here

http://www.colonelgordon.com/aboutgordon.shtml


Some more of his pieces here

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26294

Despite often hysterical rhetoric to the contrary from America’s Islamofascist enemies, human rights organizations, and Democratic senators, the policy for handling of the terrorist detainees at Guantanamo has always been “safe, humane treatment consistent with force protection
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25961

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22279

Largely unreported are the increasing cases of Islamic terrorists convicted of crimes in the U.S. under the criminal justice system. We are all aware of high profile cases such as John Walker Lindh, the so-called “American Taliban”; John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, the “Beltway Snipers”; and Zacarias Moussaoui, the “Twentieth Hijacker”; but we are less familiar with many, many others that the media chooses to overlook or pay scant attention.
Those stories are taken from Frontpagemag.com , not exactly noted for it's neutral stance. Lately muted Neo-Con cheerleader Daniel Pipes is a frequent contributor.

Gordon Cucculu isn't by any stretch of the imagination , an ambivalent observer. He seems to be very much at the forefront of the campaign to re-habilitate the image of Gitmo.
 
#6
PartTimePongo said:
Those stories are taken from Frontpagemag.com , not exactly noted for it's neutral stance. Lately muted Neo-Con cheerleader Daniel Pipes is a frequent contributor.

Gordon Cucculu isn't by any stretch of the imagination , an ambivalent observer. He seems to be very much at the forefront of the campaign to re-habilitate the image of Gitmo.
Which must be at least as equally valid as those who would vilify it.

I would say that this bloke's background gives him a lot more credibility than the usual raft of luvvies at the Washington Post.
 
#7
Awol said:
PartTimePongo said:
Those stories are taken from Frontpagemag.com , not exactly noted for it's neutral stance. Lately muted Neo-Con cheerleader Daniel Pipes is a frequent contributor.

Gordon Cucculu isn't by any stretch of the imagination , an ambivalent observer. He seems to be very much at the forefront of the campaign to re-habilitate the image of Gitmo.
Which must be at least as equally valid as those who would vilify it.

I would say that this bloke's background gives him a lot more credibility than the usual raft of luvvies at the Washington Post.
And the fact that he has actually been there!!!
 
#8
Newbie_Girl said:
maxi_77 said:
Mainly because we exported all our red necks a long time ago and guess where they all went.

Peter
Did you even bother to read what this former officer had to say or did you dismiss it out of hand because it's from an American source?
Oh I read what he had to say and commented after reading. I have had more experience of the US than some, but of course less than others, but I am well aware that there is a very wide spectrum of opinion over there. Personally though I am not a believer in the concept that the end justifies the means, and equally I am not convinced that Gitmo is no wholly counterproductive and has in reality effected the recruitment of many more terrorists than it has removed from circulation.

Peter
 
#9
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
 
#10
Sir_Prancealot said:
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
NOt all by a long way were picked up on the battlefield, many were taken at road blocks in house to house raids and so on. The proper place for them is in Afghanistan to be dealt with under Afghan law. Equally there are many stories that at least some of the inmates have been aquired from places other than Afghanistan, but of course as there is little real evidence allowed out by the US who really knows.

I certainly believe that the legality of Gitmo is dubious, and it is in no way a deterrent, rather it acts as a recruiting call for the terrorists, and that is a very bad thing. We may be able to control terror by military means but it cannot be exterminated by military means, at some point we have to convince the masses of Islam that the real bad guys are OBL and his chums, the Baath Party insurgent in Iraq, and Hezbolla etc in Lebanom and Palestine. Only then will the terror die out as it's life blood of support and cash dies away.

Peter
 
#11
maxi_77 said:
Sir_Prancealot said:
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
NOt all by a long way were picked up on the battlefield, many were taken at road blocks in house to house raids and so on. The proper place for them is in Afghanistan to be dealt with under Afghan law. Equally there are many stories that at least some of the inmates have been aquired from places other than Afghanistan, but of course as there is little real evidence allowed out by the US who really knows.

I certainly believe that the legality of Gitmo is dubious, and it is in no way a deterrent, rather it acts as a recruiting call for the terrorists, and that is a very bad thing. We may be able to control terror by military means but it cannot be exterminated by military means, at some point we have to convince the masses of Islam that the real bad guys are OBL and his chums, the Baath Party insurgent in Iraq, and Hezbolla etc in Lebanom and Palestine. Only then will the terror die out as it's life blood of support and cash dies away.

Peter
To save me the bother of searching Peter, could you tell me your position on letting the Iraqis deal with nice Uncle Saddam in their own ropey way?
 
#12
Perhaps so Peter , but if they were kept on Afghan soil I think the big danger would have been them being released/escaping then carrying on their evil deeds, point taken about it acting as a recruiting sergeant for jihadis but to be honest I dont believe they need that much persuading from our side given the apparent encouragement coming from their imams in the mosques , as reported on Ch 4's despatches this week ( even with the obvious editing )
 
#13
Sir_Prancealot said:
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
No battlefield in the Gambia though, eh?
 
#14
Even more than the real jihadi's it is the ordinary people who turn a blind eye to the jihadis that are far more affected by the bad PR, it is the peole who choose not to report the strange behaviou next door, or that their son has started mixing with strange friends, all that background support.

It is the many 10p contributions collected that pay for the fares to a 'good madrassa'. It is the basic hearts and minds problem. Look at the trial going on in London today, see how much we depend onn the community for evidence even after we have caught them, we need that evidence before the act to deal with this problem.

Peter
 
#15
Sven said:
Sir_Prancealot said:
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
No battlefield in the Gambia though, eh?
You're right there Sven. But you know as well as I do that the American military are so bored right now, having nothing at all to do and with problems even justifying their very being, that they often open global phonebooks, pick out an individual at complete random and then send in a couple of Apaches to pluck him from his allotment just to fill the long empty days.
 
#16
Sven said:
Sir_Prancealot said:
Given that these people were scooped up on the battlefield & Afghanistan isn't noted as a holiday hotspot , I don't think the spams were wrong to lift these people & try to find out what they had been up to or what their future jihadi intentions were going to be. Besides where on earth were they supposed to keep these enemy combatants ?
No battlefield in the Gambia though, eh?
Perhaps not but the Israelis have been lifting people for years in an effort to prevent attacks , personally I would much rather see a baddie scooped off the street irrespective of where , than see another airliner crashed into a building or more carnage on our public transport system
 
#17
Sir_Prancealot said:
Perhaps not but the Israelis have been lifting people for years in an effort to prevent attacks , personally I would much rather see a baddie scooped off the street irrespective of where , than see another airliner crashed into a building or more carnage on our public transport system
And the Israelis have managed to stop terror attacks against themselves?

Peter
 
#18
I said 'effort' to prevent , besides Israel is in the unique position of being on somebody else's land , so not surprising the Palestinians have been so active in trying to get at least some of it back. But this is off the thread , the real question should really be , if Gitmo didn't exist how many attacks would have happened that have been avarted due to intel gathered or because the operatives were banged up in Gitmo
 
#19
maxi_77 said:
Sir_Prancealot said:
Perhaps not but the Israelis have been lifting people for years in an effort to prevent attacks , personally I would much rather see a baddie scooped off the street irrespective of where , than see another airliner crashed into a building or more carnage on our public transport system
And the Israelis have managed to stop terror attacks against themselves?

Peter
They've stopped thousands.

Anyway, about my question...?
 
#20
I would suggest that Gitmo has probably stopped very few attacks if any, the guys that run these things are not numpties and will have changed any plans that those in Gitmo knew, wouldn't you. On the other hand how many Jihadis started on their path because of Gitmo, how many Moslems are just that bit less likely to inform because of Gitmo, how many have contributed to the cause because of Gitmo.

I fear Gitmo tells us about the past and helps our enemies have a future.

Peter
 

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