Gibraltar's future.

Even in its most fascist incarnation, Spain left Gibraltar alone. I recall that Hitler wanted Franco to help him take it and the Caudillo effectively told him to do one....
That's not strictly true - Franco imposed what the natives used to call the 'last siege' when he closed the border in 1969. This ran until February 1985 ( I know, I was there) when the road gates were re-opened. We were confined to camp on the night for fear of adverse publicity should half a thousand pissed Queensmen appear in front of the World's TV cameras.

Franco also built an oil refinery just along the coast hoping, it is said, to make the life of the Rock's inhabitants unpleasant with the stench of the smoke & fumes that it would give off. Sadly for Franco, and the local residents, he didn't do a very good weather appreciation and for most of the time the prevailing wind blew a trail of grotty smog across Spain. On the odd occasions that the wind did blow our way, fair play to him, it was fvcking honking.

 
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That's not strictly true - Franco imposed what the natives used to call the 'last siege' when he closed the border in 1969. This ran until February 1985 ( I know, I was there) when the road gates were re-opened. We were confined to camp on the night for fear of adverse publicity should half a thousand pissed Queensmen appear in front of the World's TV cameras.

Franco also built an oil refinery just along the coast hoping, it is said, to make the life of the Rock's inhabitants unpleasant with the stench of the smoke & fumes that it would give off. Sadly for Franco, and the local residents, he didn't do a very good weather appreciation and for most of the time the prevailing wind blew a trail of grotty smog across Spain. On the odd occasions that the wind did blow our way, fair play to him, it was fvcking honking.

Mmmm - interesting, wasn't fully aware of this, although I remember the occasional tensions....

That said, he clearly stopped well short of any form of military action to recover Gibraltar (although I do wonder how a British defeat in the Falklands might have altered Spain's calculus)...
 
Even in its most fascist incarnation, Spain left Gibraltar alone. I recall that Hitler wanted Franco to help him take it and the Caudillo effectively told him to do one....
Further to my last - this is quite an interesting piece of history: The German plan to invade Gibraltar was named Operation FELIX. Hitler gave a lot of the preliminary footwork to Admiral Canaris who, as he was secretly plotting the downfall of his Fuhrer, effectively talked Franco out of joining in.
 
Mmmm - interesting, wasn't fully aware of this, although I remember the occasional tensions....

That said, he clearly stopped well short of any form of military action to recover Gibraltar (although I do wonder how a British defeat in the Falklands might have altered Spain's calculus)...
During all the Falklands excitement, Spain was considered a real risk despite the fact that they were, as the conflict in the South Atlantic was being conducted, in the process of joining NATO (which they did in May 1982). My battalion sent a Company to the Rock, which as the Spearhead Bn was as far south as any of us got, but that's another story.... and mini-subs were allegedly seen operating against us from Algeciras across the Bay.

The Argentinians formulated a plan for their Operation ALGECIRAS, which was mercifully foiled when the Argentinian commandos were arrested by an unusually vigilant Spanish policeman, the aim of which was to sabotage a Royal Navy warship in Gibraltar. Their thinking was to try and make the British feel vulnerable in European waters, and in what is effectively a 'Home Port', and then hope that we would divert assets that may otherwise have sailed south for Op CORPORATE. Interesting times!
 
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I'm sure we could fit another 32,000 confirmed and ardent British into Britain if we could entice them from their sun soaked non floating gin palace...
No need, as over 95% of them voted to remain in the EU.
 
Solution seems easy enough. Send some SNP types to Catalonia to sow the seeds of dissent and independence while making it known to Madrid that Westminster is considering accepting independence for Scotland.

Janette Krankies uglier sister already supports Catalonia

Good luck on ever joining the EU, Wee Nippy.
 

Truxx

LE
It strikes me that Gibraltar isn't actually that defendable. Its easy to cut off, there's no safe space on it, and no room to manoeuvre. If the Spanish want it, one good sized set piece battle and its theirs. Oh we can make it very expensive for them (in lives), but doing that would be very expensive for us (in pounds) over a much longer period.
But tricky to find.

See RM beach assault for details.
 
What is the way ahead?
"Take my drum to England, hang et by the shore,
Strike et when your powder's runnin' low;
If the Dons sight Devon, I'll quit the port o' Heaven,
An' drum them up the Channel as we drumm'd them long ago."

Someone's beard may need another singe.
 

par avion

War Hero
That's not strictly true - Franco imposed what the natives used to call the 'last siege' when he closed the border in 1969. This ran until February 1985 ( I know, I was there) when the road gates were re-opened. We were confined to camp on the night for fear of adverse publicity should half a thousand pissed Queensmen appear in front of the World's TV cameras.

I can see the Sun headlines ....

'Five Hundred British Queens invade Spain'
 
Have the Spanish got a fleet? I mean not that we have either but you never know.
 
The EU are banging on about a level playing field... it might be difficult to arrange regards Gib....
village people.jpg
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It strikes me that Gibraltar isn't actually that defendable. Its easy to cut off, there's no safe space on it, and no room to manoeuvre. If the Spanish want it, one good sized set piece battle and its theirs. Oh we can make it very expensive for them (in lives), but doing that would be very expensive for us (in pounds) over a much longer period.
No safe space? When we were there, there was 32 miles of tunnel in the rock and only 30 miles of road on the surface! This last figure will have changed somewhat since due to the massive reclamation works undertaken on the western side. Within the tunnel system there was/is an amazing array of 'stuff', from old hospitals, barracks, water reservoirs, bunkers, workshops (the 'REME Chambers' were reputed to be second only to some place in Canada, IIRC, in terms of size, height, area for a man made unsupported 'cave'), headquarters and so on all linked by a comprehensive road and passage system. This will give you an idea of what is inside: 1970s - Colonel J. M. E. Gareze - The Tunnels of Gibraltar

As the resident battalion, each company had a 'War position' - starting at the Frontier and Four Corners Guardroom, back across the airfield to North Front. Then from there back up the Rock, including the observation post all the way back to Europa Flats. Fortress HQ (what the 1* HQ called itself) had a secondary location inside. Long story short - I was trained as a 'Tunnel Guide': if the balloon had gone up, we were tasked to lead folk around inside; in reality we conducted tours for visiting senior officers etc of those bits open to view. Fascinating all the same.
 

Endoscope

Old-Salt
Have the Spanish got a fleet? I mean not that we have either but you never know.
Exactly so all this talk of a great little naval port to have is rubbish... we manage everywhere else. It's all historical jingoism.... about time we learnt to stop punching above our weight, get over ourselves, and the empire hangup and give the damn place back...
 
As the resident battalion, each company had a 'War position' - starting at the Frontier and Four Corners Guardroom, back across the airfield to North Front. Then from there back up the Rock, including the observation post all the way back to Europa Flats. Fortress HQ (what the 1* HQ called itself) had a secondary location inside. Long story short - I was trained as a 'Tunnel Guide': if the balloon had gone up, we were tasked to lead folk around inside; in reality we conducted tours for visiting senior officers etc of those bits open to view. Fascinating all the same.
How much did all that cost to maintain? How much of it still remains operational?
 
Gibraltar hurts Spain.

Hmm a bit like a haemorrhoid on Spains backside, just to remind them that we have kicked their arses several times over the years when they got uppity :)
 
How much did all that cost to maintain? How much of it still remains operational?
No idea about the costs of maintenance, I'm sorry: a bit above the pay grade of a 1980's Infantry subbie! Once dug, the limestone would appear to remain quite stable, I never heard of any collapses. The main problem was with humidity - the WW2 installations were all very badly rusted and no longer in use. The 'working' parts were kept as up-together as anything else was to normal PSA standards!

Today a lot of the tunnels are let out to banks and gambling firms who keep their servers in them - on a return trip there a few years ago I was surprised by a sudden blast of really warm air only to be told it was the effect of these thing's cooling fans.

Doubtless the MoD preserve enough of it for their needs, and that bit I can't really discuss.

All over Gibraltar the natives bang on about the Military 'giving' things back. This really grips my sh1t as they never had any of it in the first place, it was all installed and owned by HM Forces. If you think civvies are bad, wait until you come across Gibbo-civvies in large numbers; a more grasping, corrupt, self-centred and small-minded crowd is hard to imagine.
 
Most things I saw on a daily basis confirmed to me that it is the commercial equivalent of domestic abuse. The gambler a beaten woman that cannot bring herself to leave her partner and isn't really convinced there's anything wrong.

It tought me a huge amount about choices and consequences and shaped my attitude to the benefits culture in this country in no small part.


Another problem that can be laid at the slimeball Blairs feet … Gambling adverts soar by 500% since Blair relaxed laws | Anti Corruption Digest
snip "The number of gambling adverts seen by children has soared almost threefold to more than 1.4billion a year since Tony Blair relaxed laws covering their broadcast.
When Labour introduced legislation to allow widespread TV gaming commercials for the first time in 2005, children aged four to 15 watched 500million gambling adverts.
By 2013, this had soared to two billion, according to figures from a government consultation paper. It dropped to 1.4billion by 2016 but only because children were spending more time online, where they see more gambling adverts.
Those aged 16 to 24 saw a total of more than seven billion gaming commercials in 2016, according to the figures, which were based on information from broadcasters"
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