Germanys Defence Minister s Doctorate plagiarised?

Discussion in 'The NAAFI Bar' started by Aleegee1698, Feb 21, 2011.

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  1. This has been in the news for the last week. The amazingly popular, and extraordinary young (39 yrs old) Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg, Defence Minister for the FRG, has been accused of plagiarising his Doctorate thesis. Tonight, he has asked the Uni Bayreuth to retract his title, as he has re-read it over the weekend and has recognised many inconsistancies regarding the use of sources quoted, some of which are word-for-word from the Frankfurter Allgemeinen Zeitung and The Bundesministerium.

    This is probably one of the best Ministers the Bundeswehr has had since its formation. Guttenberg has frequently visited the Bundeswehr in Afghanistan, and has sold the problem very well to the peaceful Germans. He was on par to modernise the Army in line with its NATO Aliies, and has recently abolished Conscription, in favour of a more economic, professional Army.

    If true, which I gather after the retraction there is some truth in it, it comes down to that sorry, sad case of "Walting it up" which, as we all know, is just a matter of time before reality catchs up with you. Or as BucksFelize would say, "as they say at German Train stations,..Good Luck!
  2. Well, its official as of tonight. The University of Bayreuth, Germany, has retracted the Doctor title of Guttenberg, stating "serious violations of scientific standards" (translation).

    I now wonder how this will reflect on other NATO members, and all members of the Bundeswehr. It does not look very authentic whilst debating corruption and fraud in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Baltic States when one of the highest ranking members of the NATO alliance is a Fraudster himself. His debatation of the facts on TV was very convincing, it was all a mistake, things had not been checked or proof-read before submission etc, etc, he s very good on the gab, he could talk his way out of a traffic jam on the M25.

    Probably go scot-free, funny thing is though, in Germany, if someone has been carrying out the duties of a Bricklayer, and does not possess a "Gesellenbrief" (Journeymans certificate) after completion of a 3 year apprenticeship, he could be prosecuted by the Handwerkskammer (The Guild). I think Defence Minister is, however, a few ranks above Bricklayer...........

    I m no Socialist, on the contrary, but I suppose this cunt will carry on regardless, it always seems that Doctors, Lawyers and Politicians are "Untouchable".

    Just a little personal dig, MP, if you re reading this, read thoroughly and digest.
  3. Plagiarism comes in different forms. If he copied word-for-word whole swathes of his thesis, then they have him 'bang to rights' and he's been 'a very naughty boy'. If on the other hand it is a couple of paragraphs that have been used and not referenced correctly, blown out of proportion by the press, hardly worth losing a good minister over is it?

    I don't know which this is, but a) I wouldn't put a little cheating past an ambitious politician, and b) wouldn't put it past the gutter press wanting to sacrifice a politician in the name of sales.
  4. PP, according to the Frankfurter Allgemein Zeitung (FAZ), which was and never will be Gutter press, out of a 100 page thesis by Guttenberg, 25% was plagiarised from this newspaper, and from the Bundesministerium investigative authorities (translated). The man is very popular, maybe all the reason for the opposition to attack, yes, but after seeing him on TV today, reading inbetween the lines, he has been a "very naughty boy". One important fact is this, he was using the title in 2007, although it wasnt awarded until 2009 (?). He has used his "Blue-eyedness" in an attempt to shroud the facts, something that the Germans, and not forgetting the NATO Alliances, might not wish to accept.

    Cheating Politicians? Wo gibts denn sowas??!! Shame that he was/is good, again the sad state of affairs in Waltdom that they are of the opinion that they must be Über to really convince people............why?

    It just comes down to the fact that if you or I carried such titles in high-salary occupations, and got found out, it would be handcuffs.
  5. The question is does he actually need to be Dr blah blah von und zu Guttenberg to do the job?

    The analogy to a gesellenbrief is pretty lame as he doesn't have to be a Dr to be an MP, he may (probably did) cheat but surely it is the job of the panel who judge his thesis to notice these things?

    Of course the main reason he will get away with little censor is that 99% of the rest of them will have their own sordid little secrets they wouldn't want to get out.

    Might make his run for Chancellor a bit harder though.
  6. Nice, I have never been a friend of politics, I notice whether they are good or mediocre dependant on how much money I have at the end of the year. Your question is valid, however, taking the German system into consideration, if you would like to learn a trade or industry here, and I mean a 3 yr apprenticeship as Carpenter, or a 3 yr "training scheme" working at Lidl as a cashier, everything in FRG has its set ways. Funnily enough though, I could open a restaurant tomorrow in Germany, untrained, legally, and poison 70 people with Salmonella, I do not need a "Schein" for that, so you are probably correct with your assumption about politicians also not requiring any set qualifications. It obviously looks very dominant on a CV when a 39 yr old has "Doctor of Pyschology" (or academic abbreviations, please excuse my ignorance) to apply or be voted for the post. Angela Merkel stated yesterday, that it is not important whether one of her Ministers has a doctorate or not, as long as he does his/her job, but I bet you my months fucking take-home that on perusal of his CV etc, that that was exceedingly influential...............

    My analogy is by no means lame. Someone chooses a trade, and learns that trade for peanuts for 3-5 yrs, and on completion, he may call himself, and carry out the Artisan duties of Carpenter, Joiner, Roofer, Bricklayer etc, you must be one of these to legally fulfill these duties. So, you must be, what you are, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe no-one said he had to be a Dr., but fact is, he said he was, he upped himself, whether he needed to or not, he has committed an offence, and must be punished for that offence, just like everyone else, failing that, as of next week, who will I claim to be?
  7. But is it actually an offense to claim to be a Dr if you can convincingly prove that you have gained no advantage from it?

    I think he could claim with enough evidence and back up from some of the highest in the land that his Dr title had no bearing on his selection for the job and with his pedigree and background I think he will be able convince any court of this.

    I know the Germans are exceedingly hung up on titles ( insistance on being called Professor Doctor Doctor for instance) but afaik it is not actually illegal to claim to be something you are not unless you fraudulently gain from it.

    Especially as in this case you can realistically claim that it was all an honest mistake and not your fault anyway.
  8. Auld-Yin

    Auld-Yin LE Reviewer Book Reviewer Reviews Editor

    He could come to the UK and stand for parliament - he would be seen as the shining light of truthfulness compared to some of the people we have there now.
  9. and thank fuck for that. i never really trusted him, he seemed to good to be true.

    i disagree completely. he was just making pathetic excuses for copy/pasting 60% of his Doctorate.

    of course it had a bearing on his career. who do you think is more academic. Herr Meier or Herr Dr Meier?

    besides, the point is he's a fraud. he can't be trusted anymore. where does his cheating stop?
    it's a good thing he resigned and i find it prepostorous that anybody would defend that kind of action, especially the Bild.

    way to devalue the attainment of academic qualifications.
  10. He could always try the Gunn Gambit. The question is, is he necky enough?
  11. Quote Bald.paul.101:

    "all those people who, over the last 20 years or so have removed all the personal responsibility from every person in this country.
    Now nothing you do is your fault, theres someone else you can blame, theres always a piece of official "advice" you can quote that takes the responsibility away from you.
    No good at something ? That'll be an 'ism which is at fault, not you.
    cant read ? Thats because your teachers neglected you, not that you pissed around at school
    overweight ? Thats just because you are too poor to buy decent food (although strangely you can afford fags & booze!!) have a special grant which you can then blow down the pub!!
    Bleeding heart, guardian reading, hand wringing tossers that have harmed this country far more than any traditional enemy in the last 2000 years.

    This thread is just a superb release after a shite week."

    Also, looks like Guttenberg wont be Walt(z)ing at any more CDU/CSU Party Gala s