Germany to close over the next 15 years.

So, the plan is to separate the people who are required to operate and maintain the assets from the assets themselves?

Will the RAC and REME units involved be sitting at home in Blighty twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to play with a small pool of training assets in Bovvy?
The US do it all over the world.

The positioning of military assets abroad substantially reduces the time needed to transport equipment and forces to an area of conflict. Forward basing thus allows commanders to move rapidly and concentrate military power in distant corners of the world.
 
The US do it all over the world.

The positioning of military assets abroad substantially reduces the time needed to transport equipment and forces to an area of conflict. Forward basing thus allows commanders to move rapidly and concentrate military power in distant corners of the world.
They also post the personnel along with the assets. So did we at one time.
 
They also post the personnel along with the assets. So did we at one time.
Ever heard of REFORGER? Not on the same scale, but in fact the UK also held some prepositioned kit in Germany for reinforcement units on arrival, not just as War Maintenance Reserve.
 
They also post the personnel along with the assets. So did we at one time.
No they don’t. They frequently forward load equipment for ease of movement and deployment. Then if the equipment is needed, or there is a requirement for enhanced presence in certain areas, the troops move forward from CONUS, take over the kit and then crack on.
 
The army won't ever need it's heavy armour in the UK (unless we are under threat of invasion), the UK will only ever use it (hopefully) overseas.

In addition to this ......I've heard a rumour that the doors of the climate controlled hangers in the UK are not wide enough to take a Challenger. Can any arrsers confirm this?
The ones at Ashchurch obviously do.
 
Ever heard of REFORGER? Not on the same scale, but in fact the UK also held some prepositioned kit in Germany for reinforcement units on arrival, not just as War Maintenance Reserve.
That was during a time when there was a very large and permanent garrison in Germany. It was also at a time when the ORBAT was predicated on any anticipated conventional war taking place on the North German Plain against the forces of the Warsaw Pact. During any build-up to war, the fixed garrison would be reinforced from the UK by regular, regular reserve and territorial army troops.

This scenario no longer applies.

Any future conflict could take place absolutely anywhere and is very unlikely, in any event, to be based upon a format or tactics reliant on heavy armour. It is more likely to follow an asymmetrical format.

I would like to hear from any tankies or REME who might better be in a position to tell us what happens to heavy armour when it is lying in storage unused (even when it is not being heavily cannibalised merely to keep a proportion of the rest on the road).

All heavy armour units will be 'reinforcement units' after drawdown. What will be their role or function in the UK when a greater (or at least substantial) proportion of their kit is sitting in a large shed in Germany?
 
That was during a time when there was a very large and permanent garrison in Germany. It was also at a time when the ORBAT was predicated on any anticipated conventional war taking place on the North German Plain against the forces of the Warsaw Pact. During any build-up to war, the fixed garrison would be reinforced from the UK by regular, regular reserve and territorial army troops.

This scenario no longer applies.

Any future conflict could take place absolutely anywhere and is very unlikely, in any event, to be based upon a format or tactics reliant on heavy armour. It is more likely to follow an asymmetrical format.

I would like to hear from any tankies or REME who might better be in a position to tell us what happens to heavy armour when it is lying in storage unused (even when it is not being heavily cannibalised merely to keep a proportion of the rest on the road).

All heavy armour units will be 'reinforcement units' after drawdown. What will be their role or function in the UK when a greater (or at least substantial) proportion of their kit is sitting in a large shed in Germany?
You are making quite a lot of assumptions about future conflicts there that I don’t think would be shared by defence or the security services. Any conflict probably wouldn’t happen ‘absolutely anwhere’ In reality we can be fairly confident the broad areas where future conflict would take place.

Why would the role of function or armoured units change because they have some of their equipment stored in a place that is not where they are based?

How is it different to what the US do?

Why would it be better to move all armour to the U.K. where the training areas are more constrained and unless fighting is going to be in the U.K. you then have to rely on the SLOC or potentially the Channel Tunnel for vehicle outload.
 
In addition, the only place in the UK troops can fire off 120mm rounds (...or even 30mm rounds of a warrior for that matter) is Castle Martin. In Germany there are half a dozen options.
Has Lulworth closed then? Last I heard they fired 120mm rifled, 120mm smoothbore, 30mm and 40mm
 
So where should 3 Div be based?

Poland?
I mean you could do that couldn’t you. Given unlimited resources we could have a Division based in Eastern Europe and maybe one based in Kuwait or something like that. You could have a smaller - non armoured - formation based in South East Asia to look after our interests there as well.

East Africa would be a great place to put a standing formation as well.

That unfortunately isn’t reality.
 
Has Lulworth closed then? Last I heard they fired 120mm rifled, 120mm smoothbore, 30mm and 40mm
I rather think that the 'several' suitable training areas that were suggested as being available in Germany in a previous post have somewhat diminished in number and/or area since the poster last served in the Fatherland.

The green persuasion is very strong in Germany and what were once training areas are now, in many cases, protected eco-sites suitable only for camping, rambling and dog walking. As far back as the early 90s, movements had become so restricted that it was well nigh impossible to conduct full-fat exercises, hence the increased reliance on tabletop exercises, Combined Arms Staff Trainers and the like.

I understand that we might be hanging on to Senny (or part of it).
 
I suppose the drawdown of BFG is the reality coming home maybe?

War is Europe, is no longer the most likely threat, arguably the most dangerous threat yes.

It potentially saves money that otherwise would have meant further MOD cuts.

It possibly frees up personnel to make more available.

It possibly forces the military to become more agile and responsive (especially in terms of logs). Possibly makes it less deployable (which could be what Government wants, especially as those logs seem to be cut further).

Giving the size the British Army is going to be does it makes sense to have such a high proportion of its combat power based elsewhere
 
I rather think that the 'several' suitable training areas that were suggested as being available in Germany in a previous post have somewhat diminished in number and/or area since the poster last served in the Fatherland.

The green persuasion is very strong in Germany and what were once training areas are now, in many cases, protected eco-sites suitable only for camping, rambling and dog walking. As far back as the early 90s, movements had become so restricted that it was well nigh impossible to conduct full-fat exercises, hence the increased reliance on tabletop exercises, Combined Arms Staff Trainers and the like.

I understand that we might be hanging on to Senny (or part of it).
Sennelager, Grafenwohr and Hoenfehls to name three.

Access to French training areas such a CENZUB - although not necessarily armoured.

Access to Eastern Europe especially Poland - without the costs of the SLOC
 
I mean you could do that couldn’t you. Given unlimited resources we could have a Division based in Eastern Europe and maybe one based in Kuwait or something like that. You could have a smaller - non armoured - formation based in South East Asia to look after our interests there as well.

East Africa would be a great place to put a standing formation as well.

That unfortunately isn’t reality.
Well given that there is going to 1 Div, 2 Armd Inf Bdes, 2 Strike Bdes, an Air Aslt Bde and a Cdo Bde (none of which have a lot of Inf).....
 
That was during a time when there was a very large and permanent garrison in Germany. It was also at a time when the ORBAT was predicated on any anticipated conventional war taking place on the North German Plain against the forces of the Warsaw Pact. During any build-up to war, the fixed garrison would be reinforced from the UK by regular, regular reserve and territorial army troops.

This scenario no longer applies.

Any future conflict could take place absolutely anywhere and is very unlikely, in any event, to be based upon a format or tactics reliant on heavy armour. It is more likely to follow an asymmetrical format.

I would like to hear from any tankies or REME who might better be in a position to tell us what happens to heavy armour when it is lying in storage unused (even when it is not being heavily cannibalised merely to keep a proportion of the rest on the road).

All heavy armour units will be 'reinforcement units' after drawdown. What will be their role or function in the UK when a greater (or at least substantial) proportion of their kit is sitting in a large shed in Germany?
There is an argument to be had for and against CHE Storage, at least as far as armour goes. From what I experienced, wheeled vehs, if prepared correctly, were perfect for it. Being involved in the start up of TFSU (G) I was very much swayed by the technical argument for controlled humidity storage, but not exactly as the RLC and Land decided to do it.

My disagreement with the process was that I believed armour needed periodic exercising, hull and turret, to provide increased probability of minimal degradation being evident during breakout. The RLC and Land however went with whatever cost less in terms of manpower, REME and crew. What skewed the whole trial was the complete and utter crap units often, initially, placed into storage, wheeled vehs being generally in horrific state as were all the AS90's we received. The CR2 wasn't much better either but with the REME Bns delivering repair teams on a periodic basis (as Lead Bn) they were eventually brought up to somewhere near acceptable standard.

I often heard an argument about optics not being designed for CHE, I was however not convinced. I was more concerned about gun eqpt and suspension units.

As for cannibalisation; during my time it only existed in unit lines before eqpt was transferred to us. I neither sanctioned (not that I could, it was down to IPTs) nor saw any take place.
 

Cyberhacker

Old-Salt
This scenario no longer applies.
With the greatest respect, I refer the honourable gentleman to the US Army's Propositioned Stock - especially the European Activity Sets, which (according to Public Domain sources) provides equipment for a Division Headquarters, one Armoured Brigade Combat Team, an Artillery Brigade, a Sustainment Brigade, and associated enablers.
 

Cyberhacker

Old-Salt
Quite D&D - as your link states:
The Army’s pre-positioned stocks — known as APS — which are set up in each combatant command to be used in a contingency operation for rapid response will remain.
Units deploying as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve are taking their own kit with them - but the APS is still there!

In fact 405th AFSB (responsible for the European sets) is expanding!
 
Ever heard of REFORGER? Not on the same scale, but in fact the UK also held some prepositioned kit in Germany for reinforcement units on arrival, not just as War Maintenance Reserve.
I was on the Crusader part of the Ex as a member of a TA Inf unit( 6 RRF). Biggest movement of UK pers since WWII, etc etc..We went out to play against other NATO countries , its only since I came across the mighty ARRSE that I found out that Ivan got more than a little anxious when the entire NATO headsheds crashed out ( as I think im right in saying was a trigger for the nerves). Imagine seeing 3 Shock Army pouring over the horizon. .may even have negated the 3 day compo effect. Either that or you'd wonder who was picking up the tab for the for the OPFOR special effects :D
 

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