Germany must pay WWII victims

#1
Germany 'must pay WWII victims'

Italy's top court has ordered the German government to pay compensation to the families of Italian civilians killed by Nazi soldiers in 1944.

The Cassation Court said Berlin must pay one million euros (£787,000) to the relatives of nine victims of the massacre in the town of Civitella.
In all, 203 civilians were shot in revenge for an Italian partisan attack.
Germany argued it had immunity from being held financially responsible for Nazi crimes during World War II.

A lawyer representing the German government said Berlin had already paid reparations under international treaties with Italy.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7683713.stm


That's quite a can of worms to open there....
 
#2
I think germany should have the italian government pay million euros to the familes of the soldiers killed by the partisans.
 
#3
This is silly-whilst we all hate the Nazi's crimes, you can't reduce historical guilt to a financial transaction, and where does it end? Compensation for slavery? France compensating Germany for invading in 1806? germany compensating france for 1870? Arabs compensating greeks for invading the Byzantine empire? Norwegians compensating the UK for 10th century viking raids?? Its utterly ridiculous, and cheapens the memories of those that died by assigning a financial value to their suffering...
 
#4
Interstingly the Germans are still looking for the perpetrators of such horrid actions. I found that this morning in a French daily:

(Google translation)

An SS battalion at the origin
of the Maillé massacre

The massacre of 124 inhabitants of the french village of Maillé by German soldiers on 25 August 1944, was very likely perpetrated by an SS battalion based in Châtellerault.

Sixty-four years after the massacre of 124 men, women and children committed by German soldiers in the village of Maillé (Indre-et-Loire), on the 25th of August 1944, the German court has put a name on the perpetrators.

Yesterday, the German prosecutor Ulrich Maass said that these war crimes were very likely perpetrated by an SS battalion based in Châtellerault (Vienne).

"I received the translation of evidence in the archives. They are very interesting. I'm pretty sure the SS battalion based in Châtellerault, and already suspected of having perpetrated those acts, is responsible for the massacre, " said the magistrate who in, 2004, opened a judicial inquiry.

More in french at:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...lon-ss-a-l-origine-du-massacre-de-maille-.php


The french collective memory focused on the famous Oradour sur Glane massacre where the SS Das Reich division slaughtered 642 civilians in June 1944 but in the process they forgot other atrocities like Argenton-sur-Creuse (67 civilians killed) or Mussidan (52 civilians killed).
 
#5
[quote="fantassin"]Interstingly the Germans are still looking for the perpetrators of such horrid actions. I found that this morning in a French daily:

(Google translation)

An SS battalion at the origin
of the Maillé massacre

The massacre of 124 inhabitants of the french village of Maillé by German soldiers on 25 August 1944, was very likely perpetrated by an SS battalion based in Châtellerault.

Sixty-four years after the massacre of 124 men, women and children committed by German soldiers in the village of Maillé (Indre-et-Loire), on the 25th of August 1944, the German court has put a name on the perpetrators.

Yesterday, the German prosecutor Ulrich Maass said that these war crimes were very likely perpetrated by an SS battalion based in Châtellerault (Vienne).

"I received the translation of evidence in the archives. They are very interesting. I'm pretty sure the SS battalion based in Châtellerault, and already suspected of having perpetrated those acts, is responsible for the massacre, " said the magistrate who in, 2004, opened a judicial inquiry.

More in french at:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...lon-ss-a-l-origine-du-massacre-de-maille-.php


The french collective memory focused on the famous Oradour sur Glane massacre where the SS Das Reich division slaughtered 642 civilians in June 1944 but in the process they forgot other atrocities like Argenton-sur-Creuse (67 civilians killed) or Mussidan (52 civilians killed).[/quote]

If the Germans are still looking for the perpetrators over 60 years after the event, then it is obviously a high speed investigation which will bring nothing as most individuals are either dead or to old and knackered to face justice.

For killed read murdered.

I have often noticed that the French do not readily forget war crimes committed in WWII, there are plenty of plaques on walls all over France with the basic details of SS/Wehrmacht atrocities.
 
#6
The U.K. could have to file for bankruptcy if it has to repay other countries. It was a bloody big empire, wasn't it !

Still, we could regain some funds from Europe.
 
#7
They killed my old man. Should I be claiming?

He probably killed a few of them. Let's all get fecking over it. It's done.
 
#8
Drlligaf said:
I have often noticed that the French do not readily forget war crimes committed in WWII, there are plenty of plaques on walls all over France with the basic details of SS/Wehrmacht atrocities.
Well, it beats having to face up to the fact they were aided and abetted by your own countrymen, doesn't it?

You'll find very few countries that were occupied where there wasn't a good deal of active collaboration. Unless they're prepared to air their own dirty washing in public as well, they shouldn't expect the Boche to make any more of an effort than they already have.
 
#9
This could be fantastic news for the Polish economy!
 
#10
Tartan_Terrier said:
This could be fantastic news for the Polish economy!
Well they did go up against Armour on horseback! They deserved a shoeing! And a medal for stupidity.
 
#11
Why should people forget war crimes ? why forget that entire villages were destroyed ? do you forget the Blitz ? the V1s and V2s ? Not forgetting does not mean not going ahead (Franco-German Brigade anyone ?) it's just showing respect to those who were killed for no other reason than being there at the wrong place and wrong time.

As for acknowledging the past, you are ill informed. There are many plaques all around France reminding the public of the collaboration. And if you don't see them, there are plenty of TV programs/books/articles on the subject which is, with torture during the war in Algeria, a very frequent theme in the french media.

For example, in Paris, rue Saint Jacques, in the heart of the Latin Quarter and in one of the most touristy part of the capital, there is a plaque on a school stating that jewish children were arrested there with the help of the french police.

Still in Paris, on the Ecole Militaire outter wall, there is another plaque stating that jews were parked there before being deported.

Those plaques are there because those acts happened, I can't see your problem with it.

Chirac publicly said there was collaboration, it's not hidden.

There was also collaboration on the Channel Islands; I do not often hear or read about it...like you said "You'll find very few countries that were occupied where there wasn't a good deal of active collaboration"
 
#12
arfah said:
The U.K. could have to file for bankruptcy if it has to repay other countries. It was a bloody big empire, wasn't it !

Still, we could regain some funds from Europe.
And contra charge for the economic and social benefits accruing from the abolition of slavery, the elimination of piracy, the rule of law, and the invention and construction of large scale mechanised transport systems. Back in the black by a long chalk. (Bl**dy Romans - what have they ever done for us?)
 
#13
Of course, in the Channel islands all the young men of fighting age had been removed to the mainland pre-invasion and the Germans had a garrison of something like 1 german for every 5 islanders, so resistance was next to fcuking impossible! A lot of people have tried to use the example of the channel islands to make out that British people wouldn't have resisted the Nazis, clearly an ideologically motivated statement as it ignores objective realities on the ground...
 
#14
smudge67 said:
Tartan_Terrier said:
This could be fantastic news for the Polish economy!
Well they did go up against Armour on horseback! They deserved a shoeing! And a medal for stupidity.

My Bold:

Never happened pal ..... Polish soldiers had more sense!! Considering they are still the only European nation to defeat the Red Army, they had a pretty good idea they were screwed in 1939, and the main idea was to slow things down enough for as many as possible to get away to continue the fight.

As a country quite used to being ruled by outsiders, they were pretty sure that they could cope.

Rant off!

Recommended Reading : Norman Davies : At the Heart of Europe (Serca Europa)
 
#15
stevers said:
arfah said:
The U.K. could have to file for bankruptcy if it has to repay other countries. It was a bloody big empire, wasn't it !

Still, we could regain some funds from Europe.
And contra charge for the economic and social benefits accruing from the abolition of slavery, the elimination of piracy, the rule of law, and the invention and construction of large scale mechanised transport systems. Back in the black by a long chalk. (Bl**dy Romans - what have they ever done for us?)
But we did nick their fruit !
 
#16
FrankIG said:
Never happened pal ..... Polish soldiers had more sense!! Considering they are still the only European nation to defeat the Red Army, they had a pretty good idea they were screwed in 1939, and the main idea was to slow things down enough for as many as possible to get away to continue the fight.
Hello FrankIG,

my bold,don't forget the Finns!


tangosix.
 
#17
FrankIG said:
smudge67 said:
Tartan_Terrier said:
This could be fantastic news for the Polish economy!
Well they did go up against Armour on horseback! They deserved a shoeing! And a medal for stupidity.

My Bold:

Never happened pal ..... Polish soldiers had more sense!! Considering they are still the only European nation to defeat the Red Army, they had a pretty good idea they were screwed in 1939, and the main idea was to slow things down enough for as many as possible to get away to continue the fight.

As a country quite used to being ruled by outsiders, they were pretty sure that they could cope.

Rant off!

Recommended Reading : Norman Davies : At the Heart of Europe (Serca Europa)
Not according to what I've read.

The Charge, battle or skirmish of Krojanty was a cavalry charge that happened during the Invasion of Poland in the Second World War. It took place near the village of Krojanty in Pomerania (7 kilometres from the town of Chojnice) on the evening of September 1, 1939. It was one of the first clashes of the war, and part of the larger Battle of Bory Tucholskie. Elements of Polish 18th Uhlans Regiment attacked a German infantry battalion and delayed the German attack thus completing their mission. After the attack the cavalry received machine gun fire from German armoured personnel carriers stationed nearby and were forced to retreat.

The battle also is notable for having been developed into a Nazi propaganda myth of Polish cavalry attacking German tanks

The 18th Pomeranian Uhlans spotted a group of German infantry resting in a clearing in the Tuchola Forest heath near the railroad crossroads of Chojnice - Runowo Pomorskie line.

Colonel Kazimierz Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and ordered Eugeniusz Świeściak, commander of the 1st squadron, to execute a cavalry charge at 1900 hours, leading two squadrons, about 250 strong. Most of the two other squadrons, and their TKS/TK-3 tankettes, were held back in reserve.

The charge was successful: the German infantry unit was dispersed, and the Poles occupied the clearing. However German armored reconnaissance vehicles appeared from the forest road, probably part of Aufklärungs-Abteilung 20, and soon the Polish units came under heavy machine gun fire, probably from Leichter Panzerspähwagen equipped with MG 34, or Schwerer Panzerspähwagen equipped also with a 20 mm gun. The Poles were completely exposed and began to gallop for cover behind a nearby hillock.

Commander Świeściak was killed, as was Mastalerz, who tried to save him. About a third of the Polish force was dead or wounded. On the other hand, the German advance was halted long enough to allow the withdrawal of Polish 1st Rifle battalion and National Defence battalion Czersk from the nearby battle of Chojnice.

The Polish cavalry charge impressed the Germans and caused a delay in the offensive of the German 20th Motorised Infantry Division which considered a tactical retreat. This was however prevented by personal intervention of Gen. Guderian, who in his memoirs stated that he encountered

The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit for the day, and the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards unopposed. Also, it took the enemy several hours to reorganise and continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour shown in this combat

That clearly says "Cavalry Charge"

I may take a look at that book...is it worth a read?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#18
fantassin said:
Italy's top court has ordered the German government to pay compensation to the families of Italian civilians killed by Nazi soldiers in 1944
Ordered? I don't think that an Italian Court is in a position to order another state to do anything of the sort.
 
#19
smudge67 said:
FrankIG said:
smudge67 said:
Well they did go up against Armour on horseback! They deserved a shoeing! And a medal for stupidity.

My Bold:

Never happened pal ..... Polish soldiers had more sense!!
Not according to what I've read.

(snipped)

The battle also is notable for having been developed into a Nazi propaganda myth of Polish cavalry attacking German tanks

(snipped)

The 18th Pomeranian Uhlans spotted a group of German infantry
Cavalry against Infantry is what this says - not armour. Not saying it wasn't mad as hell mind you and I've not read up on it - merely quoted your own post.
 

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