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German Woman, 95, Charged With Complicity In More Than 10,000 Murders During WWII

Chef

LE
Japan was down and out for the count when Little Boy made his entrance.
LeMay had already written to the Joint Chiefs telling them he was going to be out of anything of any worthwhile size to bomb by the end of August and would be down to using his B-29's bombing very small towns and villages. He was already throwing 400 B-29's at a time at towns of 50,000 in July.
Remember, the target cities had been off limits to conventional bombing so they would be good test targets.
Read 'Quartered safe out here' G. MacDonald Fraser for a view on how down and out Japan was.

I definitely think I'm better than any nazi. I have never loaded my fellow citizens into a gas chamber, for instance.
You're presumably too young to have been offered the chance. I notice you don't say you wouldn't have either. Which is at least honest.
 

ches

LE
You don't understand do you? In the Nazi Germany that @ches and @PhotEx lived in and experienced the Nazi party were an law abiding bunch who would turn the other cheek and nobody ever got punished if they kept within the law. When the war ended I presume they moved to the east end of London where the Krays and that other bunch of loveable rogues, the Richardsons, only attacked their own kind and the front door could be left unlocked.

The scary world your family lived in was exaggerated and simply didn't exist.

The woman in question is still innocent until proved guilty. So we'll find out when the court reaches its decision. Then her motives may be scrutinised

I would say again that unlike some of the heroes on this thread I don't know how I'd behave in a different world in the 30s and 40s. But I doubt they know what they'd do to stay alive and not go up the chimney.

Give your head a wobble & feel free to quote where I've said that nobody got punished for 'crimes' against the Nazi party. The only point i've made & been able to back up with links to the relevant sources is the lack of any CM or disciplinaries of any member of the armed forces for asking to be moved away from camp or mass shooting actions. To repeat again, the impact on German servicemen & women was known about & studied with a report produced for the senior SS that highlighted the problems they had already encountered in the latter half of 1941 - predating the full implementation of the death camp system by nearly 12 months. They knew that personnel wouldn't be able to continue to kill at the rates required due to personnel becoming ineffective due to the mental stresses of killing civilians - so the process of allowing affected personnel to move without penalty was supported & allowed to ensure the efficiency of units if nothing else. It wasn't a crime to request a move if you couldn't handle the duty of killing.

You have the option of disproving that, so go ahead. Don't forget to let the likes of Holland, Walters, Gilbert et al know of your discovery of your new empirical evidence.


This case is about a civilian support worker in the camp system. I've already said that the decision to prosecute her may be debatable but thats down to the German govt & their moving of the legal goalposts but to repeat yet again, her requesting a move away from her duty for the above reasons would not have constituted a crime in Germany. She would have been able to make such a request.
 

Chef

LE
Give your head a wobble & feel free to quote where I've said that nobody got punished for 'crimes' against the Nazi party. The only point i've made & been able to back up with links to the relevant sources is the lack of any CM or disciplinaries of any member of the armed forces for asking to be moved away from camp or mass shooting actions. To repeat again, the impact on German servicemen & women was known about & studied with a report produced for the senior SS that highlighted the problems they had already encountered in the latter half of 1941 - predating the full implementation of the death camp system by nearly 12 months. They knew that personnel wouldn't be able to continue to kill at the rates required due to personnel becoming ineffective due to the mental stresses of killing civilians - so the process of allowing affected personnel to move without penalty was supported & allowed to ensure the efficiency of units if nothing else. It wasn't a crime to request a move if you couldn't handle the duty of killing.

You have the option of disproving that, so go ahead. Don't forget to let the likes of Holland, Walters, Gilbert et al know of your discovery of your new empirical evidence.


This case is about a civilian support worker in the camp system. I've already said that the decision to prosecute her may be debatable but thats down to the German govt & their moving of the legal goalposts but to repeat yet again, her requesting a move away from her duty for the above reasons would not have constituted a crime in Germany. She would have been able to make such a request.
Point taken. This was my first post on the matter:

Considering the number of active participants in the mass murdering who were ignored, indeed the vast majority of the SS weren't pursued at all. Now when there is clear blue water between the Germans and the Nazis the last few members are being tracked down and tried maybe to establish that there really were the two races in Germany.

There was no punishment for refusing to work in the camps, presumably becoming public knowledge

I wonder how happy some of the hind sight warriors of today would be to go back in time and be known as 'not a team player' in a totalitarian state where 'Nacht und nebel' was an established police procedure.

In fact I wonder how many have spoken out against some woke excesses or refused to attend unconscious bias training courses at work as a matter of principle.

In this case who knows whether she was an out and out Nazi or a late teens, early twenties girl glad of the work?


I believe you absolutely when you say that despite 'Sippenhaft', 'Nacht und Nebel' and popular sayings like 'Careful what you say lest you go up the chimney' not a single person was officially punished for declining a directive they felt was morally wrong.

Where we do appear to part company is your certitude that the people who were living in a war torn country after 12 years of Nazi rule trusted implicitly in the rule of law and that unofficial sanctions would never be applied to an awkward person.

You and I are lucky enough to live in a society with no death penalty a robust and non political legal system plus a plethora of quangos dedicated to ensuring the rights of the individual. We can express our views and opinions mostly without the police getting involved and long may it continue.

What I don't know is how I'd behave in a foreign country, in the midst of a struggle for national survival, under a dictatorship three quarters of a century ago. So how can I know what someone who was there at that time and place do? Rather like some of the trials of soldiers on Op Banner almost 50 years ago.

You on the other hand seem to be absolutely certain that you'd stand up to the authority which for eleven years of your 19 you'd been taught to obey.

Maybe we're comparing apples and oranges.

ETA 'Don't forget to let the likes of Holland, Walters, Gilbert et al know of your discovery of your new empirical evidence.'

I didn't know it was possible to prove the nonexistence of these punishments. That should make the job of atheists a bit easier. :)
 

ches

LE
Point taken. This was my first post on the matter:

Considering the number of active participants in the mass murdering who were ignored, indeed the vast majority of the SS weren't pursued at all. Now when there is clear blue water between the Germans and the Nazis the last few members are being tracked down and tried maybe to establish that there really were the two races in Germany.

There was no punishment for refusing to work in the camps, presumably becoming public knowledge

I wonder how happy some of the hind sight warriors of today would be to go back in time and be known as 'not a team player' in a totalitarian state where 'Nacht und nebel' was an established police procedure.

In fact I wonder how many have spoken out against some woke excesses or refused to attend unconscious bias training courses at work as a matter of principle.

In this case who knows whether she was an out and out Nazi or a late teens, early twenties girl glad of the work?


I believe you absolutely when you say that despite 'Sippenhaft', 'Nacht und Nebel' and popular sayings like 'Careful what you say lest you go up the chimney' not a single person was officially punished for declining a directive they felt was morally wrong.

Where we do appear to part company is your certitude that the people who were living in a war torn country after 12 years of Nazi rule trusted implicitly in the rule of law and that unofficial sanctions would never be applied to an awkward person.

You and I are lucky enough to live in a society with no death penalty a robust and non political legal system plus a plethora of quangos dedicated to ensuring the rights of the individual. We can express our views and opinions mostly without the police getting involved and long may it continue.

What I don't know is how I'd behave in a foreign country, in the midst of a struggle for national survival, under a dictatorship three quarters of a century ago. So how can I know what someone who was there at that time and place do? Rather like some of the trials of soldiers on Op Banner almost 50 years ago.

You on the other hand seem to be absolutely certain that you'd stand up to the authority which for eleven years of your 19 you'd been taught to obey.

Maybe we're comparing apples and oranges.

ETA 'Don't forget to let the likes of Holland, Walters, Gilbert et al know of your discovery of your new empirical evidence.'

I didn't know it was possible to prove the nonexistence of these punishments. That should make the job of atheists a bit easier. :)

I've said previously on this thread about the unofficial penalties many people paid especially in the latter months of the war. It will be down to her & her defence to provide evidence that she would have faced some form of unofficial penalty however if she started working there early in the camps life then that would be debatable.

At no point have I said I'd stand up to the authorities. You may have me confused with another poster. I have no idea what i'd have done.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Read 'Quartered safe out here' G. MacDonald Fraser for a view on how down and out Japan was.

That would be the shattered remains of the 14th Army that had completely collapsed and was in full rout from Burma by the time Little Boy had his big day out?
 

ches

LE
That would be the shattered remains of the 14th Army that had completely collapsed and was in full rout from Burma by the time Little Boy had his big day out?

Shattered may be, but fighting like demons all the way. Commonwealth casualties were awful pushing them back.
 

Chef

LE
That would be the shattered remains of the 14th Army that had completely collapsed and was in full rout from Burma by the time Little Boy had his big day out?
No. That would be the ascendant 14th Army that was chasing the Japanese out of Burma prior to facing, possibly, a conventional invasion of the Japanese homeland where casualties were expected to be so huge that the US are probably still using the Purple Hearts struck then in anticipation of the aforementioned casualties.

A war which may have gone on for years.

As you've read possibly read the book I presume you're on the side of the man who'd rather the allies suffered casualties than the Japanese. With whom we were at the time at war with.

Personally I'm glad that GMF survived to write the 'Flashman' books.

'The essence of war is violence, moderation in war is imbecility.'
 
Some of the Dutch were pretty enthusiastic anti-Soviet types. One of the largest foreign contingents in the SS was a brigade strength unit as 4th PZ Gren SS Nederland
I recall reading that the Dutch were very contradictory, with both the highest percentage of any western population as collaborators and the highest as actual resistors.
 

ches

LE
I recall reading that the Dutch were very contradictory, with both the highest percentage of any western population as collaborators and the highest as actual resistors.

Indeed & tbf the recruits to the SS were anti-communists first, turn coats second......in their own eyes at least.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
No. That would be the ascendant 14th Army that was chasing the Japanese out of Burma prior to facing, possibly, a conventional invasion of the Japanese homeland where casualties were expected to be so huge that the US are probably still using the Purple Hearts struck then in anticipation of the aforementioned casualties.

A war which may have gone on for years.

As you've read possibly read the book I presume you're on the side of the man who'd rather the allies suffered casualties than the Japanese. With whom we were at the time at war with.

Personally I'm glad that GMF survived to write the 'Flashman' books.

'The essence of war is violence, moderation in war is imbecility.'

The Japanese were in no position to fight on in Burma, they were a starved rabble in headlong retreat.
 

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