German Wündertanks vs Shermans

I'm not too sure ref inter-swapping of common parts from different plants. I have a hazy memory that B24 Libs built in differing locations had a singular lack of the same key dimensions or fittiings of some common replacement part. It became an issue that could only be resolved by retro-fitting a shedload of a/c. Like i said, hazy recollection. It wasn't widespread but it certainly did happen. I also think there were one or two issues with early Sherman versions to the point upgrading with later variant parts wasn't an option. Again not 100% but its ringing a bell.
 
Unfortunately - for his Armed forces, at least - he was also in love with the notion of victory through superior Herman engineering (Sieg durch technik, anyone?), and even more committed to the dog-eat-dog / survival-of-the-fittest bollix that was absolutely fundamental (heavy emphasis on the syllables 'MENTAL', imho) to Nazi ideology.

Hence he was never gonna concede that shitloads of "good enough" produced to common standards across a range of factories working at full capacity 24/7 was the only chance - and even then at best only the slimmest of chances - that Der Vaterland could ever have, of staving off defeat in the face of the sheer mass of Soviet manpower, and American manufacturing.

When the Allies decided to pick over the ruins of the collapsed Reich, the technical intelligence teams didn’t have any problems finding stuff to hoover up, quite the reverse, they were overwhelmed. The master race had some 10,000 active arms projects on the go in the final days, often duplicated as naturally, the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegesmarine and SS didn’t speak to each - and that was just the active trying to make things projects, they had untold numbers of people busily involved in blue Sky thinking and research on ever more wonderful wunderwaffen..

look! hypersonic sub orbital bombers mien fuhrer!!

https://jalopnik.com/5582511/the-nazi-rocket-plane-to-nuke-new-york-from-orbit
 
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I'm not too sure ref inter-swapping of common parts from different plants. I have a hazy memory that B24 Libs built in differing locations had a singular lack of the same key dimensions or fittiings of some common replacement part. It became an issue that could only be resolved by retro-fitting a shedload of a/c. Like i said, hazy recollection. It wasn't widespread but it certainly did happen. I also think there were one or two issues with early Sherman versions to the point upgrading with later variant parts wasn't an option. Again not 100% but its ringing a bell.

Yes, there was the odd hiccup, but said hiccups were swiftly corrected, that’s why the mix and match QC was done. Detroit was the Americans war winning weapon. They churned out everything from guns to tanks, to aircraft like mass production cars.
 
Yes, but that's hardly unique to Germany. I've got a doc on a 268 ton tank which someone had designed. Without context it looks like it was in the development process. All the designer needed to ensure final victory as you'd only need 500 of his tanks, was £200,000.

I suspect a lot of the wunderwaffe the wheraboo and panzer46 mob get all moist over fall into that category.
 
When the Allies decided to pick over the ruins of the collapsed Reich, the technical intelligence teams didn’t have any problems finding stuff to hoover up, quite the reverse, they were overwhelmed. The master race had some 10,000 active arms projects on the go in the final days, often duplicated as naturally, the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegesmarine and SS didn’t speak to each - and that was just the active trying to make things projects, they had untold numbers of people busily involved in blue Sky thinking and research on ever more wonderful wunderwaffen..

look! hypersonic sub orbital bombers mien fuhrer!!

https://jalopnik.com/5582511/the-nazi-rocket-plane-to-nuke-new-york-from-orbit
My point(s) proven, I think

In feckin' spades :thumright:
 
You don't seem to grasp the scale of this lunacy.

And, given the scale of the war on which the Austrian housepainter had embarked his nation, lunacy is to put it mildly.
Erm, I really have to take issue with that concept. Lunacy by all means, but don't forget that half of his victories were really Political Brinkmanship. He didn't declare war on us-he responded to our declaration. To that end the first half was almost 1-0 with the goal of defeating us disallowed because he couldn't .
The true Lunacy was Russia for which Germany was not equipped. But that was really him playing mind games with Stalin. He should have let Stalin attack first. Trust me sooner or later he would have. But it's important to understand that this was not initially a global war but against countries individually. It's been argued that when Japan attacked China is when the second world war started. And do we underestimate Mussolini with his med policies? Isn't that Lunacy? But the point is if you're just knocking coconuts off a shy, your not planning to shift production onto a full term military basis. Plans and and Ideas in the end are just that.
 
The true Lunacy was Russia for which Germany was not equipped. But that was really him playing mind games with Stalin. He should have let Stalin attack first. Trust me sooner or later he would have.

Yes, Stalin would have, but a post purge Soviet Army that had got back on its feet would have been a very different enemy than the disrupted force the Germans faced in 1941. A years pause, Deep Battle is the primary doctrine, and the main tank of the Russian armoured Brigades is now the T34, not the BT-7, and the KV-1 is being fielded in large numbers.
 
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. . . and you then go on to heatedly agree with the assertion . . . :thumright:
Yes I see what your'e getting at, but the original plans for Russia depended on a rapid victory not a prolonged war. That was always his thinking, he needed the Russians to collapse. Put that in context had Russia fallen during the intended Summer campaign, then it would have been just a national war as had all the others.
 
Yes, Stalin would have, but a post purge Soviet Army that had got back on its feet would have been a very different enemy than the disrupted force the Germans faced in 1941. A years pause, Deep Battle is the primary doctrine, and the main tank of the Russian armoured Brigades is now the T34, not the BT-7, and the KV-1 is being fielded in large numbers.
I'm pretty sure that's what decided Hitler to strike when he did. I don't think people get the level of the double game being played between the two.
 
Yes, but that's hardly unique to Germany. I've got a doc on a 268 ton tank which someone had designed. Without context it looks like it was in the development process. All the designer needed to ensure final victory as you'd only need 500 of his tanks, was £200,000.

I suspect a lot of the wunderwaffe the wheraboo and panzer46 mob get all moist over fall into that category.

Every day, between 2000 avd 4000 allied medium and heavy bombers go on a jolly over the Reich and bomb anything that’s worth bombing....

So, do you

A) build more FW190 fighters?
B) build more 88’s

No, you spend a lot of time and production energy developing the whirlwind cannon that will allegedly cause whole bomber formations to shatter and fall from the sky like confetti...

1529957720920.jpeg


You will be unsurprised to lean, it didn’t work.

It has been argued that the best tank the Germans had was the MkIV. It had a gun that could defeat most things, it was cheap and simple to build, it was also for a German tank, reasonably reliable. If even 1% of the effort put into wundertanks had been put into the MkIV, a sloped glacIs was an obvious improvement, they would have had something that could have been churned out in enough numbers to make a dent, but no, while the Americans and Russians churned out nearly 125,000 good enough T-34’s and Sherman’s, they built just under 2000 Tigers, and 6,500 of the actually rather rubbish and always breaking down Panther.

The last German combat footage of WWII shows some panzer grenadiers moving forward for a hopeless last stand outside Berlin after the Russians had broken through the Seelowe heights ..and their tanks? A handful of elderly Stugs .... none of the wunderwaffen tanks made it to the last curtain call of the Reich,


Abd the much maligned Sherman?

Half the Sherman’s landed in Normandy in 1944 were still running on May 8 1945 when the crews finally parked them up for a well earned rest.
 
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Yes I see what your'e getting at, but the original plans for Russia depended on a rapid victory not a prolonged war. That was always his thinking, he needed the Russians to collapse. Put that in context had Russia fallen during the intended Summer campaign, then it would have been just a national war as had all the others.
You insist on writing as though Onkel Adolf actually made plans.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The indolent little shyster seldom got out of bed before mid-morning, for one thing - not a behaviour associated with the kind of temperament that wants to schedule things, and achieve order.

No, he had (for want of a better word) whims, and he left it to others to create plans to deliver them, and each strove to outdo the others in achieving them, the greater the favour they might curry with the Bohemian corporal.

Lunacy, from top to toe, and horizon to horizon.
 
You insist on writing as though Onkel Adolf actually made plans.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The indolent little shyster seldom got out of bed before mid-morning, for one thing - not a behaviour associated with the kind of temperament that wants to schedule things, and achieve order.

No, he had (for want of a better word) whims, and he left it to others to create plans to deliver them, and each strove to outdo the others in achieving them, the greater the favour they might curry with the Bohemian corporal.

Lunacy, from top to toe, and horizon to horizon.

Don’t forget the German Generals ability for denial and self delusion.

Between 1929 abd 1933, the Germans had a tank training school at Kazan in Russia. Many of the luminaries of Blitzkrieg were instructors there. But despite being immersed in Russia’s military that was busily adopting a new and radical theory of all arms combat, Deep Battle, as it’s new war fighting doctrine, the Germans were totally surprised to come across excellent tanks in 1941, and Officers able to deploy them in a new and highly effective manner.

Even more astonishing when as allegedly best mates with a Japan, they seem to have totally missed the drubbing their soon to be nemesis Zhukov had given the Kwangtung Army in 1939 using these very same tactics.

You’d think with a Her Hitler claiming Russia was a rotten edifice avd it’s arny useless, someone in the OKW might have said... you know what, the Japanese are bloody nails and battle hardened, and the Russians just kicked their arses so hard, they signed a non aggression pact, maybe they might not be the push over the Fuhrer claims.
 
He was, really?

He went to war with an army equipped with bolt action rifles and moved by horsepower of the 4 legged variety and arguably the worst personal kit of any of the combatants.
I've no doubt if you'd offered him panzertruppen throughout he would have accepted, he was limited by Germany's capability.
Unfortunately - for his Armed forces, at least - he was also in love with the notion of victory through superior Herman engineering (Sieg durch technik, anyone?), and even more committed to the dog-eat-dog / survival-of-the-fittest bollix that was absolutely fundamental (heavy emphasis on the syllables 'MENTAL', imho) to Nazi ideology.

Hence he was never gonna concede that shitloads of "good enough" produced to common standards across a range of factories working at full capacity 24/7 was the only chance - and even then at best only the slimmest of chances - that Der Vaterland could ever have, of staving off defeat in the face of the sheer mass of Soviet manpower, and American manufacturing.
Hitler was never going to win from the day he invaded Russia, however I still think he's not a the best example of someone who thought that a bayonet and 'military attitude' was the answer to superior technology, which was the point of the original comment.
 
I've no doubt if you'd offered him panzertruppen throughout he would have accepted, he was limited by Germany's capability.

Hitler was never going to win from the day he invaded Russia, however I still think he's not a the best example of someone who thought that a bayonet and 'military attitude' was the answer to superior technology, which was the point of the original comment.
Indeed. The reverse would be closer to the truth - he clung to the end to his delusion that a handful of high tech miracle weapons, which only Aryan Ubermensch were capable of crafting (rather as only The Dwarves were capable of making Mjolnir?), would secure inevitable Herman victory.

All of this in the face of the more difficult economic, industrial, logistic and demographic facts, which basically said 'the more people and stuff you can put in the field, the more likely it is that you will win"
 
I'd love to say "I bet I can find anything just as stupid as the Germans tried", I think I know where to look, the trouble is I don't have time to get down there and view the documents.
Individual projects, unadopted, for the most part, by the dozen.

Great Panjandrum, anyone?

Why you won't find is even the faintest resemblance to to the systemic, costly, grossly inefficient lunacy of the Herman military-industrial complex under Schickelgruber.
 
I've no doubt if you'd offered him panzertruppen throughout he would have accepted, he was limited by Germany's capability.
.
He loved the trappings of ceremony, the important Stuff? Logistics? Nur fur GrossFaZ!

The much vaunted Heer couldn’t even get the basics right. Uniform and personal kit? Trash, looked good, but trash that took excessive maintenance and fell apart rapidly. Look at pictures if dead allied troops, notice how many are missing their boots? That’s Herman replacing his aweful jackboots with something decent, even at the risk of a summary execution if caught with them.

Tommy may have bitched about his boots, webbing and serge battledress, but after capturing large stocks of the stuff, the Germans issued it to grateful Landser who much preferred it. In fact it was so much better than the snappy kit all the re-enactment fan Bois love to dress up in, the Germans eventually simply copied it.

Example of the smart ‘we need to make lots of this stuff’ British thinking? They simply cut the bottom off the standard field jacket to make the 35 pattern Blouson. Saved a fortune in material and time to make, and it came in one style, fits like a bag o s***
Meanwhile, the Germans went to war in immaculately cut and tailored uniforms courtesy of Hugo Boss... yes really, that Hugo Boss the fashion designer!


I love this picture, sums up the mater race perfectly, the sneering look on the Hugo Boss attired Master race officer as he walks past the BoS Tommy into captivity.

1530000217532.jpeg
 

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