German Wündertanks vs Shermans

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"The troops will have to make very great exertions", of course: standard German planning assumption whenever someone asked awkward questions...
I was trying to avoid talking about the shot down plan :) but, that was the German way. They were more than willing to punt a force, to manoeuvre an enemy out of a heavily defended position.

On other points:
Arnhem - go back into my posts and you will see, I said Arnhem was a stupid plan, definitely more stupid than my own hasty creation. Sacrificing an entire division, on a landing zone, 8 miles from the bridge, is downright, criminal.

Op Certain Death, I did give some ideas, but happy to just drop it.. A task force of maybe a half dozen small coasters, to land the troops directly on the beach. A couple of larger steamers, preferably with with a crane and ability to offload the 2/6 pounders on the beach... With a supporting force of 6-8 inch cruisers and an escort.. An a CAP overhead, with an on call force of bombers, when required.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I was trying to avoid talking about the shot down plan :) but, that was the German way. They were more than willing to punt a force, to manoeuvre an enemy out of a heavily defended position. .
And how well did that work out for them?
 
Op Certain Death, I did give some ideas, but happy to just drop it.. A task force of maybe a half dozen small coasters, to land the troops directly on the beach. A couple of larger steamers, preferably with with a crane and ability to offload the 2/6 pounders on the beach... With a supporting force of 6-8 inch cruisers and an escort.. An a CAP overhead, with an on call force of bombers, when required.
None of which were available let alone a steamer with a crane that had a reach of potentially a few hundred feet onto a suitable beach from the deeper water............unless you used the well known technique of swinging the 6 pounder back & forth on the end of the cranes jib to get a decent lobbing arc going & then let the fcuking go at the end of its upswing hoping it landed on something soft....some daft planning blokes head possibly.
 
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None of which were available let alone a steamer with a crane that had a reach of potentially a few hundred feet onto a suitable beach from the deeper water............unless you used the well known technique of swinging the 6 pounder back & forth on the end of the cranes jib to get a decent lobbing arc going & then let the fcuking go at the end of its upswing hoping it landed on something soft....some daft planning blokes head possibly.
I wasn't talking about liberty ships, It is 116kms from Alexandria to El Alamein. A half dozen sub 1000t coasters or even bigger nile riverboats, could cover that distance, carrying the men. Needing, one or two larger ships for the heavier guns. What was the strength of the Med Fleet in Alex, on the day of the battle ?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I wasn't talking about liberty ships, It is 116kms from Alexandria to El Alamein. A half dozen sub 1000t coasters or even bigger nile riverboats, could cover that distance, carrying the men. Needing, one or two larger ships for the heavier guns.?
How do the guns, their prime movers, and their ammunition get from these "larger ships" to dry land in an intact and usable form?
 
I wasn't talking about liberty ships, It is 116kms from Alexandria to El Alamein. A half dozen sub 1000t coasters or even bigger nile riverboats, could cover that distance, carrying the men. Needing, one or two larger ships for the heavier guns. What was the strength of the Med Fleet in Alex, on the day of the battle ?
Do your own bloody staff work.
 
How do the guns, their prime movers, and their ammunition get from these "larger ships" to dry land in an intact and usable form?
Don't come to General Ecomcon with problems; he expects solutions!
 
I wasn't talking about liberty ships, It is 116kms from Alexandria to El Alamein. A half dozen sub 1000t coasters or even bigger nile riverboats, could cover that distance, carrying the men. Needing, one or two larger ships for the heavier guns. What was the strength of the Med Fleet in Alex, on the day of the battle ?

Neither was I. You find a shallow draft small ship with crane that can offload direct onto a beach capable of lifting a load equivalent to a fully laden Bren carrier or similar. Nothing of that ilk existed in that theatre that either a) wasn't needed somewhere else on something more important or b) was deployable in major war scenario with some measure of self protection when the shat hits old fan
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
load them onto pontoons
So we're escalating our requirements to need geared cargo ships (able to crane-lift ton-plus loads), and pontoons able to handle over a ton of payload while also being able to unload over an unprepared beach.

Oh, and don't forget the tugs to get the pontoons from ship to shore and back.

Does any of this kit actually exist in theatre? Or are we firing off our Urgent Operational Requirement to the nearest shipyard and hoping for a reply before the campaign's over?
 
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So we're escalating our requirements to need geared cargo ships (able to crane-lift ton-plus loads), and pontoons able to handle over a ton of payload while also being able to unload over an unprepared beach.

Oh, and don't forget the tugs to get the pontoons from ship to shore and back.

Does any of this kit actually exist in theatre? Or are we firing off our Urgent Operational Requirement to the nearest shipyard and hoping for a reply before the campaign's over?
I was told no heavy ships were available; I found some light cruisers, with fairly big guns.
The logistics can always be made to fit an operation. If said Operation is pants, then fine with me, it was only ever a bit of fun.
 
Available: 15th Cruiser Squadron with 2 - 6 in gun cruisers and another 4 older light cruisers and a dozen destroyers.
Available? Not a chance, it was needed all over the Med on more important tasks. Its not like they were sat in Alex doing nothing for months on end. Heavily involved in numerous surface actions inc both Sirte actions. Taking them out of line for a month or so of dicking about off the coast would have been a colossal waste of resource not to mention leaving them as sitting ducks for the german & Italian bomber fleets.
 
I was told no heavy ships were available; I found some light cruisers, with fairly big guns.
The logistics can always be made to fit an operation. If said Operation is pants, then fine with me, it was only ever a bit of fun.
As I recall, a scenario similar to this was the subject of "Take and Destroy"; a novel written in 1976 by then well-known author John Harris, which went into a lot of detail (as I remember - it was 40 years ago!) about how such a mission may have been mounted with the resources available in 1942 North Africa.

I also remember that it didn't go especially well....
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I was told no heavy ships were available; I found some light cruisers, with fairly big guns.


Were they available, sitting idle with crews complaining of inaction?

Or were they fully occupied elsewhere?

The logistics can always be made to fit an operation.
Said many a G3 ninja, about to have a harsh lesson in reality...
 
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Available? Not a chance, it was needed all over the Med on more important tasks. Its not like they were sat in Alex doing nothing for months on end. Heavily involved in numerous surface actions inc both Sirte actions. Taking them out of line for a month or so of dicking about off the coast would have been a colossal waste of resource not to mention leaving them as sitting ducks for the german & Italian bomber fleets.
What was the casualty returns in the first week of trying to break through the german crust ?
All those lost men, might have appreciated, someone trying to throw a spanner in the Germans defensive counter-attacks long enough, to get through the minefields.
 

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