German troop in afghanistan: not enough kit.

#1
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Se...ghanistan-poorly-equipped/UPI-82311270654019/
Apparatly they have exactly the same shortcomings as we do, not enough heli's, lack of heavy armament and their replacement helicopters is 3 times over-budget and year late....

Apparantly sending enough kit out there to do the job would make it too 'war' like for the german population :? , although i doubt the wisdom of sending the leopard over there.

Apologies if already posted.
 
#3
One of the parties is pushing for Leopard II to be sent, but from what I saw on the news last night it won't be going. The biggest problem (at home) is selling this to the Germans as it is a very unpolpular war. In fact I'd go as far as saying there seems to be to main 'camps'; either fully fund and equip to win or pull out completely.
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
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#4
LeastIcoulddo said:
Apparantly sending enough kit out there to do the job would make it too 'war' like for the german population :? , although i doubt the wisdom of sending the leopard over there.

Apologies if already posted.
Don't the Danes and Canadians operate MBT over there ?
 
#5
the_boy_syrup said:
LeastIcoulddo said:
Apparantly sending enough kit out there to do the job would make it too 'war' like for the german population :? , although i doubt the wisdom of sending the leopard over there.

Apologies if already posted.
Don't the Danes and Canadians operate MBT over there ?
They do, quite successfully. But I don't think the German deployment of MBTs, if it in fact happened, would be based on primarily military concerns. They are (the Bundeswehr) politically hamstrung more than any other NATO contingent.
 
#6
It was only a few days ago that the German Defence Minister mentioned the word war, but only in a colloquial context. That's come a long way from the almost desparate avoidance of the word that was previously practiced. Kit shortage is nothing new, as already stated attack helis were non existent, though I believe that may have been rectified. To some extent the problem has been caused by what was seen as a non combat mission coupled with a strong reluctance to get in anything involved like the US Army or the British Army. Now that things have turned ugly, the Bundeswehr has been caught short and the politicians aren't coming up with the necessary goods.
 
#8
As Recce19 states:

"In fact I'd go as far as saying there seems to be to main 'camps'; either fully fund and equip to win or pull out completely. "

and Baboon6 eludes to:

"They are (the Bundeswehr) politically hamstrung more than any other NATO contingent."

... the Bundeswehr are currently caught between a rock and a hard place. There have been numerous calls for them to increase their force levels from NATO/ USA, all of which their Government have rejected to date. They rely heavily on the neighbouring forces for support up in the north, as I believe their RoE are horrendously restrictive and they do not have much SH or AH capability.

To top that, their deployment legitimacy is being ping-ponged about by their politicians back home like some playground game to keep them amused and in the headlines, but the politicians really do not appreciate the situation these soldiers are in.

Coupled with the ongoing witch-hunts in Parliament and the German Courts reference the Fuel tanker attack, I wouldn't be surprised that their morale is at an all time low.

Personally, those soldiers and officers of the Bundeswehr I have worked with in the past I would gladly have on my side when the crap hits the fan, but they were all "Zeit- or Berufsoldat", which are their volunteers, not the drafted recruits.
 
#9
madflags said:
As Recce19 states:

"In fact I'd go as far as saying there seems to be to main 'camps'; either fully fund and equip to win or pull out completely. "

and Baboon6 eludes to:

"They are (the Bundeswehr) politically hamstrung more than any other NATO contingent."

... the Bundeswehr are currently caught between a rock and a hard place. There have been numerous calls for them to increase their force levels from NATO/ USA, all of which their Government have rejected to date. They rely heavily on the neighbouring forces for support up in the north, as I believe their RoE are horrendously restrictive and they do not have much SH or AH capability.

To top that, their deployment legitimacy is being ping-ponged about by their politicians back home like some playground game to keep them amused and in the headlines, but the politicians really do not appreciate the situation these soldiers are in.

Coupled with the ongoing witch-hunts in Parliament and the German Courts reference the Fuel tanker attack, I wouldn't be surprised that their morale is at an all time low.

Personally, those soldiers and officers of the Bundeswehr I have worked with in the past I would gladly have on my side when the crap hits the fan, but they were all "Zeit- or Berufsoldat", which are their volunteers, not the drafted recruits.
Pretty much sums it up. Karfreitag (Good Friday) was a big shock to the Bundestag when The Bundeswehr lost three soldiers in one go. It was reported as the largest single loss of life for them, don't know how true that is.
 
#10
Recce19 said:
madflags said:
As Recce19 states:

"In fact I'd go as far as saying there seems to be to main 'camps'; either fully fund and equip to win or pull out completely. "

and Baboon6 eludes to:

"They are (the Bundeswehr) politically hamstrung more than any other NATO contingent."

... the Bundeswehr are currently caught between a rock and a hard place. There have been numerous calls for them to increase their force levels from NATO/ USA, all of which their Government have rejected to date. They rely heavily on the neighbouring forces for support up in the north, as I believe their RoE are horrendously restrictive and they do not have much SH or AH capability.

To top that, their deployment legitimacy is being ping-ponged about by their politicians back home like some playground game to keep them amused and in the headlines, but the politicians really do not appreciate the situation these soldiers are in.

Coupled with the ongoing witch-hunts in Parliament and the German Courts reference the Fuel tanker attack, I wouldn't be surprised that their morale is at an all time low.

Personally, those soldiers and officers of the Bundeswehr I have worked with in the past I would gladly have on my side when the crap hits the fan, but they were all "Zeit- or Berufsoldat", which are their volunteers, not the drafted recruits.
Pretty much sums it up. Karfreitag (Good Friday) was a big shock to the Bundestag when The Bundeswehr lost three soldiers in one go. It was reported as the largest single loss of life for them, don't know how true that is.


Plus 4 injured, 2 of whom were serious, but after having been casevaced back to the Bundeswehr hospital in Koblenz they are all in a stable condition. It was indeed the biggest single loss of life, the shock was appropriately large. Seemed deja vu to me.
 
#11
It is also infuriating that the vast majority of the German population seem to have no idea why they are involved at all in Afghanistan. My neighbours rely on me for information (which of course is only my view and opinion), coupled with the vague occasional reports from the political magazines, such as Stern or Focus.

This lack of information is of course exploited by some of the political parties, namely "Die Linke" (The Left), who sit firmly in the pull out of Afghanistan camp.
 
#12
The German mission in Afghanistan was only approved after it was sold as a humanitarian and rebuilding one. The German politicians are hung up on the ghosts of WWII, just look at the hassle of having to change their Constitution on deploying outside of their own country.

As Drlligaf says: 'Seemed deja vu to me'. Glad the injured are stable now.
 
#13
Recce19 said:
Pretty much sums it up. Karfreitag (Good Friday) was a big shock to the Bundestag when The Bundeswehr lost three soldiers in one go. It was reported as the largest single loss of life for them, don't know how true that is.
December 2002 6 killed when a helicoper went down. Near Kabul.

June 2003 3 killed in VBSIED against a BW bus. Kabul.

May 2007 3 killed in SIED. Kunduz.

June 2009 3 killed in RTA during firefight. Kunduz

April 2010 3 killed in COMBAT.

The last word is the clue to the stink.
 
#15
tearsbeforebedtime said:
Recce19 said:
Pretty much sums it up. Karfreitag (Good Friday) was a big shock to the Bundestag when The Bundeswehr lost three soldiers in one go. It was reported as the largest single loss of life for them, don't know how true that is.
December 2002 6 killed when a helicoper went down. Near Kabul.

June 2003 3 killed in VBSIED against a BW bus. Kabul.

May 2007 3 killed in SIED. Kunduz.

June 2009 3 killed in RTA during firefight. Kunduz

April 2010 3 killed in COMBAT.

The last word is the clue to the stink.
Thanks for that Tears' and yes, I believe you're right.
 
#16
The new plan is to send lots of leos
via road :twisted:
1st step poland then on to moscow :twisted:
 
#17
Rockstar said:
Was there any news on the outcome of the combat? How many enemy did the BW kill?
When German journos posed the question to a spokesman, there was no answer. For some reason the Bundeswehr wants to keep that information non public. Maybe they have learned from the tanker incident.
 
#18
Looks like Bomber Harris' philosophy and strategy of imprinting into the German national psych ("for generations") that war is bad worked too well?
 
#19
I hadn't realised that the Bundeswehr's logistics chain had been outsourced to Gordon Brown...
 
#20
I have one good German friend and know quite a few of his colleges from the Fatherland.
Non are young men and all grew up during the second war.
The collective Brainwashing the German folk received at wars end had a long term effect and is behind the Mental set up of today.
Wars are evil and bad.
OK a defence of the Fatherland would be acceptable but overseas adventures are out.
This is the rock solid belief of the Generation that now rules Germany.
As one poster said Afghanistan was sold as 'humanitarian and rebuilding' not conquest.
Even I have difficulty with NATO in Afghanistan.
john

Like the Leopards to Kabul via Poland and Russia.
 

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