German President invited to Cenotaph.

Apparently Uncle Adolf had the French sign their surrender in it then blew it up!
From a railway forum
"With the end of WWII in sight, the SS destroyed and buried the original 2419 D carriage in the German village of Crawinkel in April 1945.
After the war in 1950 the museum was rebuilt and a carriage number 2439 D from the same series as the original was placed back in the museum.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
The Cenotaph ceremony is a memorial to all our war dead and most were caused by Germany. It is for the Germans to truckle to us for starting two wars which together, worldwide, caused something like a hundred million deaths, not us. The German President is a figurehead and as such represents Germany's historic criminal activity. Inviting him is a direct insult to all those whose families have suffered because of his country's crimes.
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
The Government are considering inviting the German President to the Cenotaph on Armistice day to commemorate 100 years of the end of WW1.

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-24/...anys-president-to-cenotaph-for-ww1-centenary/

This was also discussed on Jeremy Vine on Channel 5. Colonel (Retd) Richard Kemp said that he was not against the visit, but was concerned that it would detract from the true meaning of the occasion.

Danny Boyle (film director) has also been asked to film it.

I’m all for the visit, but this is starting to look like a circus.
I do hope the German President is not invited and the ceremony remains as it is, a ceremony dedicated to the remembrance of our people who fell while fighting against the oppression exerted by others in times gone by.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The Treaty of Versailles was signed in the Hall of Mirrors at the palace of Versailles. It was a peace treaty. The following that includes the fate of this railcar is below, taken from a book I am writing. I'm sure this is a case of overkill, but I hope it sates your appetite for information.







The delegation of German negotiators arrived to meet the Allied negotiators in Marshal Foch's special railway car at Rethondes, a railroad station in the forest of Compiègne, on November 8th 1918. Only after the Germans were forced to formally request an armistice, did Foch hands over the terms:



Germany must evacuate from Belgium, Alsace-Lorraine, and Luxemburg within 14 days,



• The German Army must turn over about one-third of its artillery and about one-half of its machine guns.



• Germany must evacuate the west bank of the Rhine River, and give the Allies bridgeheads to the east side of the Rhine at Köln (now Cologne), Mainz and Coblenz (now Koblenz),



• German troops must pull back from the Rhine to create a 24.8-mile-deep neutral zone, and



• The Allied naval blockade would continue to insure German compliance with the armistice.



The Germans were given 72 hours to accept or reject the conditions for a truce. On November 10th, with Kaiser Wilhelm in Holland, the German Army headquarters authorized the German delegation in Compiégne to sign an armistice.







When armistice negotiations were resumed at 0235, Foch had somewhat reduced the harsh terms, allowing the German army to retain more armaments, giving the Germans more time to withdraw from the territory they had taken, reducing the east bank of the Rhine neutral zone depth to 6.2 miles, and allowing German troops to stand fast in the east (to oppose the spread of Bolshevism) until the Allies request their withdrawal. The armistice was signed at 0510. Before departing, the German negotiators read a letter of protest that suggested the harsh terms threatened Germany with "anarchy and famine." No handshakes were exchanged. News that the armistice was to begin at 1100 (the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918) was broadcast at 0540. Casualties on the last day of World War One numbered 10,944, of whom 2,738 died.







June 21st 1940: on a lovely summer day in the Compiegne Forest at Rethondes about 50 miles northeast of Paris, Hitler arrives at 1515 for the presentation of armistice terms to the French. This is to take place in a railroad dining car (the "wagon-lit"), taken from a French museum and placed in the exact location where the Germans signed the World War One Armistice.



While walking to the dining car, Hitler comes to a large granite block with an inscription in French. The inscription is translated for Hitler:



"Here on the Eleventh of November 1918 succumbed the criminal pride of the German Empire - Vanquished by the free people it tried to enslave."



The French delegation of four arrives, not knowing beforehand that the armistice terms would be presented in the Wagon-Lit. Looking shattered but composed, they enter the railcar to find Hitler sitting in the same seat at the middle of the table that had been occupied by Marshal Foch for the World War One Armistice signing.



After General Keital reads a statement that is a revisionist version of history (probably drafted by Hitler), Hitler leaves the dining car after instructing General Keital that the armistice terms are not negotiable. The harsh terms are intended "to provide Germany with the guarantees require for the enforced pursuit of the war against Britain" and "reparation of the wrongs inflicted by force on the German Reich."







June 23rd 1940: at 1730, the French delegation was given the ultimatum to sign the armistice by 1830 or the armistice talks would end and fighting would begin again. After talking with the French Cabinet in Bordeaux, the French delegation signs the document at 1850. The armistice is not to go into effect until six hours after the French sign an armistice with Italy.



(After signing, the French delegation was driven to Paris and flown to Rome to sign an armistice with the Italians. The next day, the French World War One victory monument was blown up and the “wagon-lit” was taken to Berlin for display, arriving on July 8th. The historic railroad car would be destroyed later in the war during Allied bombing attacks on Berlin.)
From a railway forum
"With the end of WWII in sight, the SS destroyed and buried the original 2419 D carriage in the German village of Crawinkel in April 1945.
After the war in 1950 the museum was rebuilt and a carriage number 2439 D from the same series as the original was placed back in the museum.
My mistake, World at War said it did but it seems it was just the memorial that he had demolished.
 
My mistake, World at War said it did but it seems it was just the memorial that he had demolished.
Apparently demolished and taken to Berlin.After the war the remaining pieces were returned to the original site in the forest and the present day memorial was made from the pieces.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
In the fall of france episode of the world at war the explosion is quite large although that could have been the sneaky germans propaganda.
 
Apparently Uncle Adolf had the French sign their surrender in it then blew it up!

not quite. this from another site...
"During the German occupation of France, from 1940 to 1944, the site was cleared and the carriage taken to Berlin. Later as the war went badly for Germany, it was moved to the forest of Thuringe and destroyed by fire in April 1945 by a country fearful of a repeat of the 1918 Armistice negotiation and signing.
The Final Chapter
This wasn't the end of the story for the forest clearing known as the Glade of the Armistice. On September 1st, 1944, Compiègne was liberated. In November, General Marie-Pierre Koenig, the best known Free French leader after General de Gaulle, led a military parade in the Glade watched by crowds that included British, American and Polish officials.
On November 11th, 1950, a replica railway carriage was officially opened containing the objects that you see today.
 
No I believe they are descendants of the IRA :x

Many of the newly-established Free State Army were ex-British Army soldiers which is what you might expect (previous experience in a big war), but it got up the noses of many in the IRA who hadn't participated in WW1.

Michael Collins was allegedly shot by a former British squaddy, which is what you might expect (lots of previous shooting experience). Tom Barry (commanded the IRA in Cork was an ex-gunner) commented in his book that he had to get close with the Black & Tans; I'd assume they'd have won in a long distance shoot out..
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
OK, well Remembrance Sunday is supposed to be about Remembrance and reconciliation, not perpetrating hatred of peoples from other nations that we've fought against in wars that are almost outside living history or beyond.

Unless you want to exclude the American Ambassador because of the War of 1812? Or the French Ambassador because of the Whole Napoleonic thing? Or Zanzibar (38 minuets) in 1896?
I too believe that Armistice Day, and later Remembrance Sunday as well, are about remembrance and hopefully reconciliation, and it was unsurprisingly not my decision to invite the German president.

I know you're not stupid and realise that the Armistice was signed in 1918, so why bring up the War of 1812 and the Anglo-Zanzibar War ?
 
not quite. this from another site...
"During the German occupation of France, from 1940 to 1944, the site was cleared and the carriage taken to Berlin. Later as the war went badly for Germany, it was moved to the forest of Thuringe and destroyed by fire in April 1945 by a country fearful of a repeat of the 1918 Armistice negotiation and signing.
The Final Chapter
This wasn't the end of the story for the forest clearing known as the Glade of the Armistice. On September 1st, 1944, Compiègne was liberated. In November, General Marie-Pierre Koenig, the best known Free French leader after General de Gaulle, led a military parade in the Glade watched by crowds that included British, American and Polish officials.
On November 11th, 1950, a replica railway carriage was officially opened containing the objects that you see today.
"it was moved to the forest of Thuringe"
It may have been moved to a forest in Thuringia (officially the Free State of Thuringia) but .....
From Wikipedia;
Crawinkel is a municipality in the eastern part of Germany in the district of Gotha, Thuringia. Crawinkel was first mentioned in 1088.
After the Armistice with France in 1940, during World War II, German forces took numerous memorials from the forest of Compiègne, where the Armistice with Germany that ended World War I was also signed, as prizes to Crawinkel. These included the actual railway carriage where both armistices were concluded. In 1945, the car was dynamited and its pieces buried. Since the German reunification in 1989, numerous artifacts have been recovered and returned to France.

Their source is here."Bevölkerung der Gemeinden, Gemeinschaftsfreie Gemeinde, erfüllende/beauftragende Gemeinden, Verwaltungsgemeinschaft/Mitgliedsgemeinden in Thüringen". Thüringer Landesamt für Statistik (in German). September 2018.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
In further news, the World Championship of Pedantry was nearly won by a contender using the worlds most variable source of data.
This result can be confirmed/denied/changed depending on how many argumentative clowns are on the web.
"it was moved to the forest of Thuringe"
It may have been moved to a forest in Thuringia (officially the Free State of Thuringia) but .....
From Wikipedia;
Crawinkel is a municipality in the eastern part of Germany in the district of Gotha, Thuringia. Crawinkel was first mentioned in 1088.
After the Armistice with France in 1940, during World War II, German forces took numerous memorials from the forest of Compiègne, where the Armistice with Germany that ended World War I was also signed, as prizes to Crawinkel. These included the actual railway carriage where both armistices were concluded. In 1945, the car was dynamited and its pieces buried. Since the German reunification in 1989, numerous artifacts have been recovered and returned to France.

Their source is here."Bevölkerung der Gemeinden, Gemeinschaftsfreie Gemeinde, erfüllende/beauftragende Gemeinden, Verwaltungsgemeinschaft/Mitgliedsgemeinden in Thüringen". Thüringer Landesamt für Statistik (in German). September 2018.
 
If the German president converts to Islam, will anyone change their opinion?

Asking for a man wearing a green coat.
 
I too believe that Armistice Day, and later Remembrance Sunday as well, are about remembrance and hopefully reconciliation, and it was unsurprisingly not my decision to invite the German president.

I know you're not stupid and realise that the Armistice was signed in 1918, so why bring up the War of 1812 and the Anglo-Zanzibar War ?
Because if you're unhappy with ze Germans being invited because of unpleasantness between the nations before almost all Modern Germans were born why not include or exclude representatives of countries that have ever fought a war against us? At what point do you let go? Living memory works for me
 
I was unaware that those laying wreaths at Remembrance services all had to represent a country.


I'll give you the benefit of that being a rhetorical/beer question, but what does it have to do with anything ?
At formal Remembrance Services at a national level (where Heads of States are represented) there are the official wreaths placed on behalf of the former belligerent states. Depending on the service, after that (and generally after the official party has left) others may be invited to lay personal wreaths.

Lord High Admiral Kemp of Troops Imperial Beyond the Galaxy is talking hoop. There have been many Remembrance services (albeit not at the Cenotaph - yet) where former belligerent states are present. Each year the Gallipoli Commemorations see not only UK, France, Ireland and the ANZACs there, but Turkey, Germany, Austria, Hungary and representatives from the former Ottoman Empire being present. And generally there’s an enormous informal piss-up a day beforehand amongst the very, very senior political, diplomatic and military representatives.

And I can’t help but feeling that the c150,000 war dead from that campaign would think that was a grand idea. Much better than hurling supersonic lead and steel at each other. Kemp is a kn&b. [Ed: can you say that?]

ETA: the Commonwealth Cape Helles Service on the Gallipoli Peninsula was renamed the Commonwealth and Ireland Service in 2015 and attended by the charming and funny Irish President (along with PoW and Harry, inter alia).
 
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Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
They should consider inviting Merkel, as her career looks to be dead!

I have no issues with inviting the Germans to the Cenotaph as at the end of the day there was not a lot of difference between those occupying opposing trenches, young men forced into situations the politicians, mainly, ensured they personally did not endure! IMO both world wars were wars that should never have happened, but they did!
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Because if you're unhappy with ze Germans being invited because of unpleasantness between the nations before almost all Modern Germans were born why not include or exclude representatives of countries that have ever fought a war against us? At what point do you let go? Living memory works for me
Excellent.
So why the bit about Adams waiting until 2099 before attending and laying a wreath, or do you mean we should exclude those with whom we have fought within living memory ?
 

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