German defence woes (latest from The Times)

The story says the budget isn't scheduled to be presented until the end of next month.

Should we have a bet on it then?
Actually spending billions on defence or social welfare, and then perhaps for it all to change in September when the Green Party sticks their oar in after the federal elections?
And it still won't reach 2% of GDP either, whichever way it goes.
Which of these is for the chop then, officials don't leak documents without a reason?
 
Should we have a bet on it then?
Actually spending billions on defence or social welfare, and then perhaps for it all to change in September when the Green Party sticks their oar in after the federal elections?
And it still won't reach 2% of GDP either, whichever way it goes.
Which of these is for the chop then, officials don't leak documents without a reason?
I hope Saint Joe of Biden has strong words with them. He is already printing money Zimbabwe style to pay for his new deal. I can't see him willing to keep forking out for Germany's defence if they won't do it themselves.
 
The story says the budget isn't scheduled to be presented until the end of next month.
This is one of the special features of the national budget in Germany.
At the beginning of the year, the Ministry of Defence handed over a long list of projects to parliament; this must be done for all procurements over 25 million euros, as these must be approved separately by parliament. There, too, were a whole series of projects with the remark that the financing was not secured.
What is new now is that the Ministry of Defence also wants to submit procurement measures to the budget committee whose financing is still not secured.
Normally, procurements that are financially secured are listed with chapter numbers in the various sections of the budget; for the Bundeswehr, this is section 14.

For all projects for which this is not the case, the note "federal budget" has now been entered. It is not yet foreseeable how and whether parliament and the budget committee will react to this.

Currently in question are:

the SIGINT system PEGASUS
the P-8 Poseidon
the further development of the GTK Boxer for Joint Fire Support Teams
Attachments for assault rifles such as optics and LLM
the FCAS
the MGCS
air-transportable air traffic control systems
new radars for the air surveillance of Germany
The submarine class 212CD
New tankers for the Bundesmarine
new RHIB's
new so-called "Flottendienstboote" to replace the Oste class, ships for ELINT/SIGINT etc.

and some other, also not so important, procurements.
 
Should we have a bet on it then?
Actually spending billions on defence or social welfare, and then perhaps for it all to change in September when the Green Party sticks their oar in after the federal elections?
And it still won't reach 2% of GDP either, whichever way it goes.
Which of these is for the chop then, officials don't leak documents without a reason?
The federal budget will be passed in parliament at the end of June and will be binding for 2022, regardless of which government we have then.
The tree huggers are currently significantly more bellicose than, for example, the left side of the political landscape. For example, they have ruled out a coalition with "Die Linke" if it does not accept Germany's NATO membership.
A long way for people who three decades ago protested against the evil military with unwashed hair, fungus-covered feet and homespun jumpers.
Not that this would make this rabble more electable.
 
What like new creche's in the Kasserne's?
But they are important so that the next generation gets the right attitude towards PC, diversity and gendering.
No, probably such unimportant things as the STH, the CH-53K.
 
I hope Saint Joe of Biden has strong words with them. He is already printing money Zimbabwe style to pay for his new deal. I can't see him willing to keep forking out for Germany's defence if they won't do it themselves.
Trump tried and failed
 
I hope Saint Joe of Biden has strong words with them. He is already printing money Zimbabwe style to pay for his new deal. I can't see him willing to keep forking out for Germany's defence if they won't do it themselves.
That would almost lead to a self fulfilling prophecy. See ther’s nothing to really keep Germany in NATO, or to even have a substantial defence force. But were Germany to have a military outside NATO then they would automatically be regarded as war mongers. So effectively even the transference to an EU army. Will only mean that they’re used for others foreign adventures.
 
The federal budget will be passed in parliament at the end of June and will be binding for 2022, regardless of which government we have then.
The tree huggers are currently significantly more bellicose than, for example, the left side of the political landscape. For example, they have ruled out a coalition with "Die Linke" if it does not accept Germany's NATO membership.
A long way for people who three decades ago protested against the evil military with unwashed hair, fungus-covered feet and homespun jumpers.
Not that this would make this rabble more electable.

I can see your point about the budget being passed and being binding for 2022, but what part of the programme is not going to be part of that budget?
We are looking at a lot of very long-term and big money investment here, €100 billion alone just for a joint fighter programme.
And after that 2022 budget ends, what then?
I am with you on your view of the modern day hippies, but I think they really are still the younger generation of those we had such fun and games with back in the '80s.
Just more politically savvy now, educated even and with better personal hygiene these days.

 
I can see your point about the budget being passed and being binding for 2022, but what part of the programme is not going to be part of that budget?
We are looking at a lot of very long-term and big money investment here, €100 billion alone just for a joint fighter programme.
And after that 2022 budget ends, what then?
I am with you on your view of the modern day hippies, but I think they really are still the younger generation of those we had such fun and games with back in the '80s.
Just more politically savvy now, educated even and with better personal hygiene these days.

 
I can see your point about the budget being passed and being binding for 2022, but what part of the programme is not going to be part of that budget?
We are looking at a lot of very long-term and big money investment here, €100 billion alone just for a joint fighter programme.
And after that 2022 budget ends, what then?
I am with you on your view of the modern day hippies, but I think they really are still the younger generation of those we had such fun and games with back in the '80s.
Just more politically savvy now, educated even and with better personal hygiene these days.

That is not yet foreseeable. On closer examination, every single one of these procurement measures is needed.
If, for example, they decide to purchase the P-8 and the Class 212CD in the 2022 financial year, the funding for the coming financial years is also guaranteed.

What may be cancelled is FCAS and MGCS, where the French were probably a bit too aggressive with the aircraft. We can build excellent tanks ourselves, we don't need a joint venture for that, and the aircraft can be bought elsewhere if need be, the Americans or the United Kingdom would actually not be the worst idea.
There is also a long-term financial planning that is being carried out this year until 2025. It describes in a relatively rough and non-binding way what money will be available for planned projects in the following budget years.

 

Niamac

GCM
Probably helped by the fact that a lot of the politicians and top brass of that time had been trying to keep the Soviets out of Germany since the surrender of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad.
The old joke was that NATO existed to keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down.
 
A range, somewhere in Germany but I can't remember where. No doubt someone else does?
Nee, it was filmed in the land of Gouda and Leerdammer.
At first, like you I thought Hohne or Soltau.
Some cloggy place apparently, a Dutch army base, although I was amused by the reference below where the unscripted explosions caused the band (promoting anti-military and peacenik propaganda in 1982) to do a runner as they thought the noise and bangs were getting out of hand.
Some retired Dutch sapper is still putting 99 Red Balloons on a video juke box somewhere in Holland and telling his mates "Watch this fcuker, it was me!"

From Wiki
"The promotional video, which was originally made for the Dutch music programme TopPop and broadcast on 13 March 1983, was shot in a Dutch military training camp, the band performing the song on a stage in front of a backdrop of fires and explosions provided by the Dutch Army. Towards the end of the video, the band are seen taking cover and abandoning the stage, which was unplanned and genuine since they believed the explosive blasts were getting out of control."
 
A good summary of the issues at hand from "War on the Rocks":

Extract:
.........German millennials struggle with the military — specifically the idea that the military is an element of geopolitical power. This is a phenomenon already prevalent among the German population (and strong among the Green Party, which could come into power in Germany after the September elections). But it is even more pronounced among millennials, as a recent poll shows: A higher number of millennials support reducing the German defense budget than any other age group, while support for a budgetary increase is lower among millennials than among all other groups. We’ve intellectually — and practically — disarmed. .........

Another extract:
....... Nordstream II, in my view, is more than anything an example of Germans not thinking strategically but believing that we have moved beyond power politics to a world where economics is most important and trade brings everyone together. ........
(My comment: Yeah right, tell that to the Kremlin!)

The lightbulb moment - at least for the author of this piece:
There is a feeling of moral superiority that comes with the rejection of power politics, of realpolitik, and of national interests......... ...............In our minds, convergence was inevitable — China’s mittelschicht would ask for democracy once empowered enough and Russia’s nationalism would subside. It is partly because of these beliefs that we were so utterly unprepared for the changed world that has come to light more recently. ............. ..............The moral superiority also ignores that while we may have moved beyond such — in our view — obsolete ideas like military power, someone else — NATO and the United States — were holding a military umbrella over us, which allowed us the luxury of discounting military might.
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