German defence woes (latest from The Times)

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Morphing the old HSK into this new adjunct to TENO, um, Technische Hilfswerk and offering a year-out on non-military, or, rather, guaranteed non-expeditionary national service, sounds like an excellent idea.
 
I thought post WW2 mission of TA was to put BAOR on a war footing, provide battle casualty replacement and maintain and secure line of communication in NW Europe. Until the appearance of the TA Home Service Force (Home Guard in all but name) early 1980's the Home Defence TA went mid 1950's with the closure of AA Command and Coastal Artillery less a few Sig's Regt's for post nuclear strike recovery?
Not quite. ISTR the TA Home Defence role was officially reprised in the 1980s. Some TA units on the BAOR ORBAT were re-roled to HD, and bade a tearful farewell most of their interesting kit (MILAN, Mors etc.). The RAuxAF started to sprout Plastic Rock Squadrons around the same time.
 
Morphing the old HSK into this new adjunct to TENO, um, Technische Hilfswerk and offering a year-out on non-military, or, rather, guaranteed non-expeditionary national service, sounds like an excellent idea.
I'm not quite convinced of that yet. I have the dull feeling that once again it will be neither fish nor fowl.
Personally, I would rather make sure that the "normal" units first have enough equipment and functioning material, i.e. rather unimportant things like flying planes, rotating helicopters, moving and shooting tanks and all the funny things that one associates with the military.
On the other hand, I was only a lowly Panzeraufklärer reserve NCO and, of course, i am not supposed to question the divine inspirations of my betters.
 
I previously posted a video by this same historian where he talked about why Germany has political problems with "drones". This new video is nominally about the F-35, but as it's really about German defence politics I think it belongs here rather than in the F-35 thread.

In this video he explains the issues relating to Germany's search for a Tornado replacement and how German defence politics play into this.

He also discusses how one of Germany's central problems with defence has been that with the end of the Cold War they no longer have a clear idea of what they want a defence force for. During the Cold War the answer was simple and didn't require a lot of thought. The armed forces existed to keep the Soviets out of West Germany. Since the end of the Cold War however there is no longer a simple answer and there has been no new consensus as to the purpose which an armed forces are to fulfil. The affect this has on the Tornado replacement is a lack of any clear idea on what the new plane is needed to do.

The video is quite clearly argued and well worth watching.

 
He also discusses how one of Germany's central problems with defence has been that with the end of the Cold War they no longer have a clear idea of what they want a defence force for.
Perfectly logical to me. I mean, being told that you are far too dangerous to have a military and then being expected to have a military at the behest of an umbrella force- rather smacks of the Post WWI situation where German troops were used in Russia to fight a war they had already won in 1917. If there is no Russian threat, what are they actually defending from? Germany has no overseas ambitions and doesn't expect to be invaded, That's what Nato is there to prevent. However a country that is independent must have a " selbstverstaendliche verteidigung" capability to deal with the unexpected, but it doesn't have to be colossal.
Now put yourself in German shoes- they are to all intents only to happy to be European and put their forces into a Euro army under someone else's command. Does this smack of of a last last man letzte patrone mentality?
 
Probably helped by the fact that a lot of the politicians and top brass of that time had been trying to keep the Soviets out of Germany since the surrender of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad.
Well now in the words of the immortal, there are times when one should be very careful when wishing something
 
(...) Germany has no overseas ambitions and doesn't expect to be invaded, That's what Nato is there to prevent. (...)
And the core of NATO defence in Europe is Germany, who don't know why they need an armed forces. The reason the German armed forces are circling the drain today is because of the circular reasoning that goes on in Germany by people who can't seem to understand that when it comes to defence against Russia the central pillar of NATO effectively is Germany. Geography, demographics, and economics dictates that.

Without an effective German armed forces there is no NATO except as a talking shop.
 
Was this the various Freikorp bands fighting in the Baltic states especially Latvia and Estonia?

Yes was it or another thing do tell?
 
......Since Kursk l would have thought. ;)
I would say Stalingrad. It was the end of the Blitzkrieg. Although the SS Panzer Korp blunted the Soviet offensive at Karkov and counter attacked retaking the city, Kursk was more tactical than strategic. To blunt the Soviets offensive and buy time to reinforce and defeat the expected Allied invasion in Europe. Hitler called the offensive off when the Allies invaded Sicily and diverted troops to Italy including the LAH.
 

Mölders 1

War Hero
I would say Stalingrad. It was the end of the Blitzkrieg. Although the SS Panzer Korp blunted the Soviet offensive at Karkov and counter attacked retaking the city, Kursk was more tactical than strategic. To blunt the Soviets offensive and buy time to reinforce and defeat the expected Allied invasion in Europe. Hitler called the offensive off when the Allies invaded Sicily and diverted troops to Italy including the LAH.

Kursk was where the Soviets seized the initiative on the Eastern Front once and for all.

But l see what you mean.
 
And the core of NATO defence in Europe is Germany, who don't know why they need an armed forces. The reason the German armed forces are circling the drain today is because of the circular reasoning that goes on in Germany by people who can't seem to understand that when it comes to defence against Russia the central pillar of NATO effectively is Germany. Geography, demographics, and economics dictates that.

Without an effective German armed forces there is no NATO except as a talking shop.
Well, I’m sorry to have to say this, but tough. Why do you think Macron want’s to bad mouth NATO. Is he really concerned with the possibility that Russian Forces will steam roller through in A cold war scenario and that mighty France will become captain France and with one mighty blow will stop the Russians in their tracks. Unification WAS supposed to be the peace dividend, god knows we’d paid Gorbachev off.
That’s also why Poland and the others joined and gave Russia the ache.The emphasis has therefore shifted from Germany. If you want people to fight, you have to motivate yet nearly 80 years after the war Germany is still a dirty word. Hardly motivational is it? After years of Merkel it’s arguable if Germany as an entity actually matters, it all Europe Now.
We’re Germany to actually to consider DEXit you watch how things pan out.
 
Well the bad news certainly hasn't improved any with this revelation today.
Lots of dreams and a nice wish list there but 'the sharp decline of defence funds starting after 2022 as seen in the federal budget planning decision' rather suggests that there actually was no strategic forward planning.


No mention of when the federal budget planning decision was made but I don't think it was last week.
 
Well the bad news certainly hasn't improved any with this revelation today.
Lots of dreams and a nice wish list there but 'the sharp decline of defence funds starting after 2022 as seen in the federal budget planning decision' rather suggests that there actually was no strategic forward planning.


No mention of when the federal budget planning decision was made but I don't think it was last week.

The story says the budget isn't scheduled to be presented until the end of next month.
All affected projects were scheduled to be presented to parliament's budget committee by the end of June in order to be approved before Germany's federal election in September.
 
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