German defence woes (latest from The Times)

[terminal]

In summary (and this does not just apply in this case, but also in many others across the western democracies):

Hostile adversaries’ information operations influence the public. Public beliefs and fears translate into pressure on political decision makers. These, then make (or defer) decisions based on the opinion of a mis/disinformed public in order to maintain their public support. They do not make decisions based on the reality of the situation, from which the public has been steered away by well designed and targeted information operations.

In such a way the foundation of defeat is laid down.

I think it's a little more straight forward than that. "We" told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again. We kept emphasising the inherited guilt, how it's in their blood and even the children whose parents were born after the war had a stain they could never wash off their souls. However, we said would overlook that so long as the Bolsheviks were still a threat to civilization and allow the Germans to be armed, provided they were kept on a very short leash. It's the same thing we told the Japanese and which had the same effect.

It was indeed a very successful information operation, and it was conducted by us. It was aided and abetted by "our" almost total control over global mass media, pop culture, cinema, books, humour, sport, video games, fashion, and international political movements. Our message permeated their existence, and they were never allowed to escape it. Any who tried were branded a Nazi and made an outcast.

And then the Bolsheviks went away and "our" reason for allowing the Germans to have an army went away with it. After another decade or so the Czar came back, but our message hadn't allowed for that one, and the decades long indoctrination program had become self sustaining and had too much momentum to stop.

So the inevitable has come to pass, and our indoctrination message is now deeply embedded in the culture of much of the German political scene. We said the German state cannot be trusted with an army, and a truly peaceful German state cannot trust their own army either as it will be permeated with hidden militarists. Have a watch of the video again if you missed the part where it was said the government don't trust their own army.

So we succeeded, brilliantly. And now we're stuck with it.

 

[Condottiere]

I think it's a little more straight forward than that. "We" told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again. We kept emphasising the inherited guilt, how it's in their blood and even the children whose parents were born after the war had a stain they could never wash off their souls. However, we said would overlook that so long as the Bolsheviks were still a threat to civilization and allow the Germans to be armed, provided they were kept on a very short leash. It's the same thing we told the Japanese and which had the same effect.

It was indeed a very successful information operation, and it was conducted by us. It was aided and abetted by "our" almost total control over global mass media, pop culture, cinema, books, humour, sport, video games, fashion, and international political movements. Our message permeated their existence, and they were never allowed to escape it. Any who tried were branded a Nazi and made an outcast.

And then the Bolsheviks went away and "our" reason for allowing the Germans to have an army went away with it. After another decade or so the Czar came back, but our message hadn't allowed for that one, and the decades long indoctrination program had become self sustaining and had too much momentum to stop.

So the inevitable has come to pass, and our indoctrination message is now deeply embedded in the culture of much of the German political scene. We said the German state cannot be trusted with an army, and a truly peaceful German state cannot trust their own army either as it will be permeated with hidden militarists. Have a watch of the video again if you missed the part where it was said the government don't trust their own army.

So we succeeded, brilliantly. And now we're stuck with it.

I would agree that this is part of the issue.

 

[Mufulira42]

It’s so very evident, the vaccine issues sum it all up quite nicely, Astro zenica bad, Sputnik good, anything from the U.K., USA bad everything from France and Germany good. It must have put sand in many french generals gears to buy the HK416.

The slagging of AstraZeneca vaccine has translated to N America's shores as Canada will receive 1.2 million doses from the US as they6 have some spare in next while as the other expensive vaccines are retained for internal distribution. In the fair Dominion the provinces are shipped doses according to population but it is Retirement homes, indigenous communities and 80 plus aged citizens at front of the queue --- 'working tax payers we'll eventually get to you'

 

[fantassin]

Beginning of the end for German forces in AFG according to DW

Germany's long military mission in Afghanistan

The German Parliament has extended the Afghanistan mission by 10 months — likely for the last time. It is the bloodiest deployment of the Bundeswehr in Germany's postwar history. After two decades, witnesses take stock.

amp.dw.com

 

[SkippedOnce]

Gott in Himmel! I bet that has made them easy to plot in the Northern Fleet Ops Room.

'A report that German submarines are navigating the globe with Russian hardware has sparked security concerns. The newspaper Bild claims that the equipment is "open" to cyber sabotage and even "full loss of operability."

'A navigation system of Russian origin called Navi-Sailor 4100 has been installed on at least 100 vessels operated by Germany's military, the Bundestag, including submarines, since 2005, according to the mass-market newspaper Bild am Sonntag. The navigation devices were developed by Transas, a company founded in St. Petersburg in 1990. Although it was purchased in 2018 by the Finnish firm Wartsila, the defense division remained in Russian hands. The Bild report claims that the system's data encryption does not comply with military security standards, in an apparent reference to NATO, of which Germany is a member.

"During a worst-case cyberattack, navigation data could be hacked and the ship could fully lose operability," Bild quoted an unnamed officer as saying. The report also pointed out that Russia sometimes carries out naval maneuvers close to Germany's Baltic Sea coastline. Used widely on civilian ships, the Navi-Sailor system was fitted on about 100 German navy ships in 2005, during the chancellorship of the Social Democrat Gerhard Schröder, Bild reports. He is currently the chairman of the board of directors of the Russian company Gazprom's Nord Stream 2 Baltic Sea pipeline project.

'Subsequent governments, Bild reports, also decided to install the navigation system on two German submarines: the U35 and U36, launched in 2015 and 2016, respectively. These German-built 212A-class submarines, billed as highly maneuverable and quiet and elusive for long periods under water, use a mix of hydrogen cell, diesel and battery propulsion and are fitted with six torpedo tubes.

'Bild reported that its query to the German Defense Ministry (BMVg) on whether the Transas system was vulnerable to hacking elicited the reply that "the government is making great efforts to ensure the IT, cyber and crypto-media security in operational areas of the BMVg."

'Wartsila's website says the Transas subsidiary provides 35% of electronic chart systems used by world shipping and ports, and 45% of world simulation equipment, typically used for training. "Marine onboard equipment & data services are used on more than 13,000 commercial vessels and patrol boats of naval and Coast Guard fleets from over 100 nations," according to Wartsila.'

German submarines fitted with Russian technology: report | DW | 28.03.2021

 

[Condottiere]

Gott in Himmel! I bet that has made them easy to plot in the Northern Fleet Ops Room.

'A report that German submarines are navigating the globe with Russian hardware has sparked security concerns. The newspaper Bild claims that the equipment is "open" to cyber sabotage and even "full loss of operability."

'A navigation system of Russian origin called Navi-Sailor 4100 has been installed on at least 100 vessels operated by Germany's military, the Bundestag, including submarines, since 2005, according to the mass-market newspaper Bild am Sonntag. The navigation devices were developed by Transas, a company founded in St. Petersburg in 1990. Although it was purchased in 2018 by the Finnish firm Wartsila, the defense division remained in Russian hands. The Bild report claims that the system's data encryption does not comply with military security standards, in an apparent reference to NATO, of which Germany is a member.

"During a worst-case cyberattack, navigation data could be hacked and the ship could fully lose operability," Bild quoted an unnamed officer as saying. The report also pointed out that Russia sometimes carries out naval maneuvers close to Germany's Baltic Sea coastline. Used widely on civilian ships, the Navi-Sailor system was fitted on about 100 German navy ships in 2005, during the chancellorship of the Social Democrat Gerhard Schröder, Bild reports. He is currently the chairman of the board of directors of the Russian company Gazprom's Nord Stream 2 Baltic Sea pipeline project.

'Subsequent governments, Bild reports, also decided to install the navigation system on two German submarines: the U35 and U36, launched in 2015 and 2016, respectively. These German-built 212A-class submarines, billed as highly maneuverable and quiet and elusive for long periods under water, use a mix of hydrogen cell, diesel and battery propulsion and are fitted with six torpedo tubes.

'Bild reported that its query to the German Defense Ministry (BMVg) on whether the Transas system was vulnerable to hacking elicited the reply that "the government is making great efforts to ensure the IT, cyber and crypto-media security in operational areas of the BMVg."

'Wartsila's website says the Transas subsidiary provides 35% of electronic chart systems used by world shipping and ports, and 45% of world simulation equipment, typically used for training. "Marine onboard equipment & data services are used on more than 13,000 commercial vessels and patrol boats of naval and Coast Guard fleets from over 100 nations," according to Wartsila.'

German submarines fitted with Russian technology: report | DW | 28.03.2021

Ah, Schroeder again.

 

[LeoRoverman]

I think it's a little more straight forward than that. "We" told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again. We kept emphasising the inherited guilt, how it's in their blood and even the children whose parents were born after the war had a stain they could never wash off their souls. However, we said would overlook that so long as the Bolsheviks were still a threat to civilization and allow the Germans to be armed, provided they were kept on a very short leash. It's the same thing we told the Japanese and which had the same effect.

Well there was a rather brutal truth here isn’t there? You couldn’t trust the bolshies either and we were quite happy to occupy Central Europe in sure knowledge that their population would take the brunt in the event. I am one of those people who can attest to the guilt issue, cos I still meet it today even though I wasn’t around at the time. Unofficially I am also fairly certain that it affected my military ambitions in the British army. I certainly got the brunt of it there from the sons of the fathers who’d been through it. As I’ve said before, people were more interested in my German mum, than my English dad-who’d also been through it.
The bolsheviks may have changed their colours, but they are still a threat and to civilisation at that- you only have to look at China. But the issue is this like it or not Germany asa quasi independent state, (still controlled by that knot in the tail called the French, that we allowed) can hardly still be criticised for it’s actions 80 years ago, in the same light.

 

[Bus Pass 01]

Back to the Volksturm or GDR Workers Militia?

German military launches new recruitment drive with pledge troops will not have to fight abroad

'Homeland Security Force' will focus on domestic security and crisis management

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Krautman]

Back to the Volksturm or GDR Workers Militia?

German military launches new recruitment drive with pledge troops will not have to fight abroad

'Homeland Security Force' will focus on domestic security and crisis management

www.telegraph.co.uk

No, back to the so-called Territorial Army, which, unlike the Field Army, was only planned for homeland defense in the bad old days. They disbanded it in 2001 in the course of Military reforms. These were mainly infantry forces, inactive Jäger Battalione.
Most likely to be compared with the British Army Reserve.

 

[Bus Pass 01]

No, back to the so-called Territorial Army, which, unlike the Field Army, was only planned for homeland defense in the bad old days. They disbanded it in 2001 in the course of Military reforms. These were mainly infantry forces, inactive Jäger Battalione.
Most likely to be compared with the British Army Reserve.

I thought post WW2 mission of TA was to put BAOR on a war footing, provide battle casualty replacement and maintain and secure line of communication in NW Europe. Until the appearance of the TA Home Service Force (Home Guard in all but name) early 1980's the Home Defence TA went mid 1950's with the closure of AA Command and Coastal Artillery less a few Sig's Regt's for post nuclear strike recovery?

 

[truck_trasher]

I thought post WW2 mission of TA was to put BAOR on a war footing, provide battle casualty replacement and maintain and secure line of communication in NW Europe. Until the appearance of the TA Home Service Force (Home Guard in all but name) early 1980's the Home Defence TA went mid 1950's with the closure of AA Command and Coastal Artillery less a few Sig's Regt's for post nuclear strike recovery?

West-German TA, not British TA . . . .

 

[rickshaw-major]

No, back to the so-called Territorial Army, which, unlike the Field Army, was only planned for homeland defense in the bad old days. They disbanded it in 2001 in the course of Military reforms. These were mainly infantry forces, inactive Jäger Battalione.
Most likely to be compared with the British Army Reserve.

I knew some WBK Officers when I had MQ's in Unna. They were highly professional and a lot were ex Wehrmacht Heer.

 

[hackle]

I think it's a little more straight forward than that. "We" told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again. We kept emphasising the inherited guilt, how it's in their blood and even the children whose parents were born after the war had a stain they could never wash off their souls. However, we said would overlook that so long as the Bolsheviks were still a threat to civilization and allow the Germans to be armed, provided they were kept on a very short leash. It's the same thing we told the Japanese and which had the same effect.

It was indeed a very successful information operation, and it was conducted by us. It was aided and abetted by "our" almost total control over global mass media, pop culture, cinema, books, humour, sport, video games, fashion, and international political movements. Our message permeated their existence, and they were never allowed to escape it. Any who tried were branded a Nazi and made an outcast.

And then the Bolsheviks went away and "our" reason for allowing the Germans to have an army went away with it. After another decade or so the Czar came back, but our message hadn't allowed for that one, and the decades long indoctrination program had become self sustaining and had too much momentum to stop.

So the inevitable has come to pass, and our indoctrination message is now deeply embedded in the culture of much of the German political scene. We said the German state cannot be trusted with an army, and a truly peaceful German state cannot trust their own army either as it will be permeated with hidden militarists. Have a watch of the video again if you missed the part where it was said the government don't trust their own army.

So we succeeded, brilliantly. And now we're stuck with it.

That's an interesting theory with no doubt some factual basis, but actually "We told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again" just isn't true. "For decades", really? the Bundeswehr was established in 1955.

I speak from some small personal experience having had contact with the Bundeswehr (Regular and Reserve) and the VKK, over something like 30 years including operations and I've had a German superior in my chain of command. The disdain for Naziism is something I imagine we shared but never had reason to mention.

 

[terminal]

That's an interesting theory with no doubt some factual basis, but actually "We" told the Germans for decades that they were evil and couldn't really be trusted to have an army or they would go all Nazi again" just isn't true. "For decades", really? the Bundeswehr was established in 1955.

I speak from some small personal experience having had contact with the Bundeswehr (Regular and Reserve) and the VKK, over something like 30 years including operations and I've had a German superior in my chain of command. The disdain for Naziism is something I imagine we shared but never had reason to mention.

I think you need to review both my post and the tread of discussion that led up to it. I never claimed the German army was actually any more inclined to far right tendencies than that of any other western European country.

It goes back to this post, and the discussion which followed from it.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/german-defence-woes-latest-from-the-times.276757/post-10662823

This post contained a video, made by a German popular historian, explaining why the present day German government had such a problem with the idea of buying "drones" (UAVs). This popular historian is the one who said the German government don't trust their own army. The discussion which followed, to which my post which you quoted was one part of, was with respect to why that attitude arose.

If you haven't watched the video then you won't understand the discussion. If you didn't read the post I was responding to, then you won't understand my post.

I have previously said multiple times on this thread and others that the defence of Europe and thus the peace of the world in general depends on a capable German armed forces. The above mentioned video provides a very good insight into present day German politics and why the current defence politics problem exists.

My post pointed to the continuing existence of this problem as being to a great extent due to popular Western politics and media outside of Germany feeding an obsolete narrative which has retarded the normalisation of Germany and German politics in this era so many decades after the event which caused it.

 

[Krautman]

I thought post WW2 mission of TA was to put BAOR on a war footing, provide battle casualty replacement and maintain and secure line of communication in NW Europe. Until the appearance of the TA Home Service Force (Home Guard in all but name) early 1980's the Home Defence TA went mid 1950's with the closure of AA Command and Coastal Artillery less a few Sig's Regt's for post nuclear strike recovery?

We had a TA too. This was compromised of inactive units which were to be reactivated and brought up to nominal strength by reservists in case the Russians wanted to go on summer leave to the Atlantic coast.

 

[Bus Pass 01]

We had a TA too. This was compromised of inactive units which were to be reactivated and brought up to nominal strength by reservists in case the Russians wanted to go on summer leave to the Atlantic coast.

Based on the European conscript army model, all able bodied men had a level of military training and were liable to recall,in some countries into middle age. Some, countries system included return to the colours for refresher training at various points in a man's life. Hence 'General Mobilization' had a significant meaning. In UK National Service was for 5 1/2 years 2 years regular and 3 1/2 with your nearest TA Unit, hence huge reduction in TA late 1960's.

 

[hackle]

I think you need to review both my post and the tread of discussion that led up to it. I never claimed the German army was actually any more inclined to far right tendencies than that of any other western European country.

It goes back to this post, and the discussion which followed from it.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/german-defence-woes-latest-from-the-times.276757/post-10662823

This post contained a video, made by a German popular historian, explaining why the present day German government had such a problem with the idea of buying "drones" (UAVs). This popular historian is the one who said the German government don't trust their own army. The discussion which followed, to which my post which you quoted was one part of, was with respect to why that attitude arose.

If you haven't watched the video then you won't understand the discussion. If you didn't read the post I was responding to, then you won't understand my post.

I have previously said multiple times on this thread and others that the defence of Europe and thus the peace of the world in general depends on a capable German armed forces. The above mentioned video provides a very good insight into present day German politics and why the current defence politics problem exists.

My post pointed to the continuing existence of this problem as being to a great extent due to popular Western politics and media outside of Germany feeding an obsolete narrative which has retarded the normalisation of Germany and German politics in this era so many decades after the event which caused it.

Sure, thanks for that, many good points, but I was only querying your assertion that "We" told the Germans that they couldn't be trusted. Your point about popular culture is well made. I was concerned about the possibility of "We" being interpreted as UK Government or UK military, which it certainly wasn't, irrespective of popular culture. Just as UK attitudes to defence inevitably reflect our national history, it's entirely understandable that the same should be true for Germany. Which is absolutely not to say that they've got it right since the end of the Cold War.

 

[terminal]

Sure, thanks for that, many good points, but I was only querying your assertion that "We" told the Germans that they couldn't be trusted. Your point about popular culture is well made. I was concerned about the possibility of "We" being interpreted as UK Government or UK military, which it certainly wasn't, irrespective of popular culture. Just as UK attitudes to defence inevitably reflect our national history, it's entirely understandable that the same should be true for Germany. Which is absolutely not to say that they've got it right since the end of the Cold War.

Well a) I'm not in the UK, and b) by "we" I meant the "West" in general.

 

[History_Man]

Another link, this time from Deutsche Welt, re. the new 'Homeland Security Force':

Germany launches new voluntary military service program | DW | 06.04.2021

The German military has started a voluntary year-out program for young people. The volunteers will be trained to provide support during the next natural disaster or health crisis.

www.dw.com

 

[oscar1whisky]

Another link, this time from Deutsche Welt, re. the new 'Homeland Security Force':

Germany launches new voluntary military service program | DW | 06.04.2021

The German military has started a voluntary year-out program for young people. The volunteers will be trained to provide support during the next natural disaster or health crisis.

www.dw.com

Isn't that what Technische Hilswerk used to do?