German defence woes (latest from The Times)

JCC

Old-Salt
There’s a difference between tariffs and physically molesting a vessel and its crew.
Surely if we're talking in terms of economic warfare then tariffs is right up there?

I’d suggest that even we don’t want our liberal democracy.
I didn't expect that. I wonder how prevalent that scepticism is now?

However, what do you suggest in a ‘meddlesome’ NATO’s place?
Well I'd suggest that the EU military alliance could fairly be expected to manage any perceived or actual kerfuffles within the European land mass.

I'd also suggest that a more global alliance with a different cast list would be more suitable to manage non-EU states interests for the future.


Moreover, define ‘interfering’. I suspect that that’d get a sharp response from some of those involved in the many positive things that NATO does/has done.
And they'd get a equally sharp response back from me. I'm not a fan of NATO or its post Cold War actions but that's a judgement - and other people would reach different conclusions.

I’d also suggest that, imperfect as it may be, NATO still provides a deterrent effect that were it not there would result in a very different geopolitical landscape.
A deterrent to whom ? I'd also suggest that the geopolitical landscape has changed drastically since the fall of the USSR and not necessarily for the better.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Surely if we're talking in terms of economic warfare then tariffs is right up there?
How trade wars are effected is rather different to physical aggression. And just because countries are allied militarily/geopolitically does not mean that they can't look to compete economically. Straw man argument.

I didn't expect that. I wonder how prevalent that scepticism is now?
Fairly widespread. More so than it was, and largely because of the vanities and failings of a small number of national leaders of countries which happen to be NATO members, rather than a failing of NATO itself.

Well I'd suggest that the EU military alliance could fairly be expected to manage any perceived or actual kerfuffles within the European land mass.
I nearly sh@t myself laughing at that. Really? Really? See how the EU Army would manage without the US's help. Merkel is playing a dangerous game keeping defence spending so low. We, the UK, are too but not to the extent that she is.

I'd also suggest that a more global alliance with a different cast list would be more suitable to manage non-EU states interests for the future.
The EU Army? Nope - outside its geographical remit.

The UN? As much a hindrance as it is a help.

So which other body are we going to set up, given that some countries are unhappy financing their obligations to an already existing and credible organisation of which they are already ostensibly members?

Who'd control it and its policies/interventions?

And they'd get a equally sharp response back from me. I'm not a fan of NATO or its post Cold War actions but that's a judgement - and other people would reach different conclusions.
Indeed it is. I happen to think you're wrong but that too is a subjective opinion.

A deterrent to whom ? I'd also suggest that the geopolitical landscape has changed drastically since the fall of the USSR and not necessarily for the better.
I suspect that the Baltics might have been rolled up by now if NATO didn't exist. Again, I could be wrong but we're engaging in a fair bit of speculation here.
 

JCC

Old-Salt
How trade wars are effected is rather different to physical aggression. And just because countries are allied militarily/geopolitically does not mean that they can't look to compete economically. Straw man argument.
Would it be fair to say that most physical wars are extensions of competition for trade and resources?



I nearly sh@t myself laughing at that. Really? Really? See how the EU Army would manage without the US's help. Merkel is playing a dangerous game keeping defence spending so low. We, the UK, are too but not to the extent that she is.
Lordy no don't soil yourself - it's not worth that! I would expect to see a bloc of 500 million people with a GDP of about $18 Trillion to handle anything in their backyard especially against a bogyman of some 140 Million souls with a GDP of less than $2 Trillion.

If they can't then are they deserving of anybody's help?


The EU Army? Nope - outside its geographical remit. The UN? As much a hindrance as it is a help.
Well going by your example of the Straits then I suspect would be regarded as within a EU alliance's remit; rightly in my view. Ditto anti-piracy.

So which other body are we going to set up, given that some countries are unhappy financing their obligations to an already existing and credible organisation of which they are already ostensibly members?

Who'd control it and its policies/interventions?
I'm suggesting that a different body would be more appropriate towards US/UK national interests. What those interests are: global, trade-orientated, resource competing or exporting democracy to fly-blown shit holes would have to be decided; by the heads of the organisation and it's member governments I imagine.

I suspect that the Baltics might have been rolled up by now if NATO didn't exist. Again, I could be wrong but we're engaging in a fair bit of speculation here.
Then the EU can step up and defend them.
 

Riga

War Hero
I was thinking more of regions such as the Donbass. I'm not challenging your assertion that the Baltics et al deserve their independence merely pointing out that most border regions have a crust of peoples some of whom feel they should be on the other side.
you should meet the non-citizens of Latvia - they will always shout Russia - but they love their Western standards.
 
Out of interest, note in DT this morning in the Sandhurst pass out list, under F&C two Germans, one who would appear to be female. Are they the first, move to EU Army ? pin removed five secs to go !!
 
Out of interest, note in DT this morning in the Sandhurst pass out list, under F&C two Germans, one who would appear to be female. Are they the first, move to EU Army ? pin removed five secs to go !!
[/QUOTE
Not that new, early 80s in RAFG we two junior officers of German descent, one of whom was born in East Berlin!
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
Out of interest, note in DT this morning in the Sandhurst pass out list, under F&C two Germans, one who would appear to be female. Are they the first, move to EU Army ? pin removed five secs to go !!
Come on, surely Sandhurst has been processing foreign cadets since the year dot? Nice little earner for us.

You also lose a mark for assuming the sex of one of them, who may be just a very pretty boy.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Come on, surely Sandhurst has been processing foreign cadets since the year dot? Nice little earner for us.

You also lose a mark for assuming the sex of one of them, who may be just a very pretty boy.
Sandhurst not Britannia
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Out of interest, note in DT this morning in the Sandhurst pass out list, under F&C two Germans, one who would appear to be female. Are they the first, move to EU Army ? pin removed five secs to go !!
Not really, note there was an American as well.
 
With all due respect, you are beginning to bore the hell out of me. I'm not your sunshine, so we will not swapping spit or something else in the shower. Why don't you just hump somebody else's leg sunshine?
Oh dear. "Sunshine", in the context I was using, was an insult, not an invitation to a labial munching match. That cleared it up for you, luv? Any more colloquialisms you need a hand with?
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Oh dear. "Sunshine", in the context I was using, was an insult, not an invitation to a labial munching match. That cleared it up for you, luv? Any more colloquialisms you need a hand with?
How's your own grasp of German colloquial idiom? Ich frage nur fuern Freund, verstehste.
 
Come on, surely Sandhurst has been processing foreign cadets since the year dot? Nice little earner for us.

You also lose a mark for assuming the sex of one of them, who may be just a very pretty boy.
Had female first name! however, point taken will you book me for re-education course or reduced bread ration when the Great Helmsman takes over?
 

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