German defence woes (latest from The Times)

But NATO is in theory a military organization.

Each member must be able to contribute forces to defend the Alliance if need be. Now if we only had a hypothetical Zombie Apocalypse to worry about, nobody would give a flying **** about Germany’s military capabilities or lack of.

But the Russians are back and have been investing heavily into their forces.
They have a penchant for land grabs, and the Baltic States are members. So if something does go down, Germany can not opt out and let the willing members shoulder the burden. This causes resentment which only weakens the Alliance. They also set the example for the other European Nations and hence the muddle we are in now.
I totally get that. Hence my hunch that they are playing a holding game. I’m not convinced after the fall of the wall they were that committed to NATO anyway. IMO Germany are holding off, maybe playing their cards too close to their chest, in NATO and the EU. I don’t know what the outcome may be, but I think not good. France is weak (as always) and the U.K. has decided to leave. IMO this was misguided, but I believe this has been discussed elsewhere. We are in uncharted waters and to ask the US to take the strain for something they did not ask for is unfair.
 
I totally get that. Hence my hunch that they are playing a holding game. I’m not convinced after the fall of the wall they were that committed to NATO anyway. IMO Germany are holding off, maybe playing their cards too close to their chest, in NATO and the EU. I don’t know what the outcome may be, but I think not good. France is weak (as always) and the U.K. has decided to leave. IMO this was misguided, but I believe this has been discussed elsewhere. We are in uncharted waters and to ask the US to take the strain for something they did not ask for is unfair.
In what sense do you mean that France is weak?
 
In what sense do you mean that France is weak?
Garlic eating surrendering monkeys? Camp whare house North of Kabul they refused to leave camp after 20 odd got hit the first time. They took over from the Italians who rumour has it paid the Talib not too attack them....
 
I totally get that. Hence my hunch that they are playing a holding game. I’m not convinced after the fall of the wall they were that committed to NATO anyway. IMO Germany are holding off, maybe playing their cards too close to their chest, in NATO and the EU. I don’t know what the outcome may be, but I think not good. France is weak (as always) and the U.K. has decided to leave. IMO this was misguided, but I believe this has been discussed elsewhere. We are in uncharted waters and to ask the US to take the strain for something they did not ask for is unfair.
I think Germany wants the leadership role and benefits, whilst having as little dog in the fight as possible. They get the best of everything, prestige and not having to spend money on Defence, which ain’t cheap.
 
I think Germany wants the leadership role and benefits, whilst having as little dog in the fight as possible. They get the best of everything, prestige and not having to spend money on Defence, which ain’t cheap.
I believe you are not a fan of NATO or Germany
 
I believe you are not a fan of NATO or Germany
I believe the concept of NATO is a good thing. The current practices of most members are not however. I also believe in reality, and having to carry the members who don’t want to meet their obligations is not something the American people signed up for. I also believe our financial resources should not be used to make the welfare state better for non Americans.

Germany is a mixed bag, the older WW2 generation is dying out. I don’t exactly have much in common with my peers In Deutschland these days either. So if you don’t feel much of a cultural connection, and your strictly business partners what do you expect? IF your viewed as a mate, then that relationship is totally different then say dealing with the BMW salesmen who is just trying to con you.
 
Go to Poland as before, they’ll welcome US troops with open arms. They’ll even name a base after your President wotsisface :)
Germany is the New France, perhaps? I seem to remember de Gaulle could jack on NATO knowing he had West Germany between him and the Sovs...the Huns now have Poland (again) as their buffer...
 
I think Germany wants the leadership role and benefits, whilst having as little dog in the fight as possible. They get the best of everything, prestige and not having to spend money on Defence, which ain’t cheap.
Their view would be that they pay enough to be able to contribute to collective deterrence and defence - they don’t however feel it is in their interests to pay or contribute to unsuccessful US interventions overseas.

They would argue as well that the various disastrous US interventions recently - Iraq, Afghanistan etc have increased the threat to Germany from terrorism etc - and that contributing to a US presidents willy waving competition does nothing to resolve this.

Thirdly they would argue that they aren’t afraid of the US. It has burnt any moral authority it hald post Cold War - through failing interventions, rendition, drone warfare etc. The US doesn’t offer a markedly better solution than China or Russia - and states like Germany will treat it accordingly.

These aren’t my opinions by the way! Not at all.
 
Their view would be that they pay enough to be able to contribute to collective deterrence and defence - they don’t however feel it is in their interests to pay or contribute to unsuccessful US interventions overseas.

They would argue as well that the various disastrous US interventions recently - Iraq, Afghanistan etc have increased the threat to Germany from terrorism etc - and that contributing to a US presidents willy waving competition does nothing to resolve this.

Thirdly they would argue that they aren’t afraid of the US. It has burnt any moral authority it hald post Cold War - through failing interventions, rendition, drone warfare etc. The US doesn’t offer a markedly better solution than China or Russia - and states like Germany will treat it accordingly.

These aren’t my opinions by the way! Not at all.
I understand their points of view completely.

But I would also point out, that they did agree to 2 percent by 2024 of which they will not even come close. I would also cut them some slack if they were in the 1.8 percent ballpark.

Terrorism concerns are also a problem of their own making, and being the asshole that I am , would reach out directly to the German public and voice solidarity with the more conservative Germans. Making Merkels life more difficult and killing her with kindness. Some of her policies are very unpopular and causing her some grief would be fair play.

I would also start the Freedom Fries campaign round two and make ze Germans unpopular here in the homeland. Most Americans think things with Germany are great and wonderful, they need to be made aware of the truth and real Anti-American sentiment the Germans have.

Moralism is great, but reminding the Germans they will turn a blind eye and do business with anybody if the price is right would be mentioned. I would just call their dealings with Russia a new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and rub their noses in the German WW2 guilt complex. After all the Eastern Europeans and Poles would be paying the price, not the yuppies in Bremen, Fulda, or Munich.
 
(...) I would also start the Freedom Fries campaign round two and make ze Germans unpopular here in the homeland. Most Americans think things with Germany are great and wonderful, they need to be made aware of the truth and real Anti-American sentiment the Germans have. (...)
You better watch out for those Hamburger sandwiches or Wiener sausage on a long bun sandwich things as well then. The former is German and the latter is obviously Austrian. I understand you like to eat these with your French Fried Potatoes, as a sort of Franco-German alliance meal. You Americans are so in love with those continentals.
 
You better watch out for those Hamburger sandwiches or Wiener sausage on a long bun sandwich things as well then. The former is German and the latter is obviously Austrian. I understand you like to eat these with your French Fried Potatoes, as a sort of Franco-German alliance meal. You Americans are so in love with those continentals.
I like a good Schnitzel better. From my last trip.

IMG_0013.jpg
 
You better watch out for those Hamburger sandwiches or Wiener sausage on a long bun sandwich things as well then. The former is German and the latter is obviously Austrian. I understand you like to eat these with your French Fried Potatoes, as a sort of Franco-German alliance meal. You Americans are so in love with those continentals.
Alas those foods have been so Americanized the old world really can’t claim them anymore. Besides Euros can’t do a hamburger justice.


Menu | 2 Doors Down

I would recommend the Barnyard btw.
 
Alas those foods have been so Americanized the old world really can’t claim them anymore. Besides Euros can’t do a hamburger justice.


Menu | 2 Doors Down

I would recommend the Barnyard btw.
You were the one who said "I would also start the Freedom Fries campaign round two and make ze Germans unpopular here in the homeland". That means you need to find a new name for "Hamburger" (named after a German city) and "Wiener" (named after an Austrian city - known as Vienna in English). Perhaps you can call them "St. Petersburgers" and "Vladivos-dogs" to reflect the White House's new orientation (allegedly).
 
You were the one who said "I would also start the Freedom Fries campaign round two and make ze Germans unpopular here in the homeland". That means you need to find a new name for "Hamburger" (named after a German city) and "Wiener" (named after an Austrian city - known as Vienna in English). Perhaps you can call them "St. Petersburgers" and "Vladivos-dogs" to reflect the White House's new orientation (allegedly).
Freedom patties and Patriot weiners.

The only popular things Russian are vodka and mail order brides. Both of which **** you.
 

Grey Fox

On ROPS
On ROPs
One of the measures of good soldiers is self discipline and adherence to rules n regs. Now, in wartime or ops, there are allowed deviations - eg letting beards grow instead of shaving because every litre of water has to come by air or convoy. That's fair enough. Return to "normality" means the rules are back ref shaving, together with the shouty bloke carrying a pointy stick or equivalent thereof. If the DBH chap can't stick that, then maybe soldiering isn't for him.
Oh, yes. It so true, for example, for Canadian 'soldiers' in Latvia.
SAVE_20190206_091501.jpeg

SAVE_20190206_091519.jpeg
 

Grey Fox

On ROPS
On ROPs
You were the one who said "I would also start the Freedom Fries campaign round two and make ze Germans unpopular here in the homeland". That means you need to find a new name for "Hamburger" (named after a German city) and "Wiener" (named after an Austrian city - known as Vienna in English). Perhaps you can call them "St. Petersburgers" and "Vladivos-dogs" to reflect the White House's new orientation (allegedly).
Or "Tankoburgers" as Burger King name it in their advertisings.

 

Grey Fox

On ROPS
On ROPs
That would be an ideal solution that would secure the future of the Alliance. Granted I would prefer a Fort Abrams. The Donald is not worthy of having a military installation named after him, that is just cruel and unusual. However the stationing of a permanent armored division (armoured for you lot) instead of the rotational brigade would be a signal of commitment to all that we are here to stay.
He-he-he. Poland is undefendable position. Your base will be vapourized in the first minutes of the hot stage of the war.
 

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