German defence woes (latest from The Times)

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
At least it's not just the UK having problems with availability and operational capability...

The Luftwaffe is understood to have only four combat-ready Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets out of a fleet of 128, the latest in a long list of equipment failings in the German armed forces...
...It also followed recent reports that none of the German navy’s six submarines was combat-ready; only nine out of 15 supposedly active frigates were in full service; and only 95 out of 244 German tanks were operational. In February a leaked report on equipment shortages revealed that a tank unit had to use a painted broomstick to simulate a gun barrel on a Nato exercise.
Only about ten of Germany’s Eurofighters are able to take part in operations because of a problem with coolant leaking from the warning system that alerts pilots to potential attack, Spiegel reported. This is in stark contrast to the 82 jets that Germany told Nato were operational, in line with its obligations to the alliance.

Original article here (paywalled)

Budget issues are a concern, as always, but it would be interesting (and beyond the scope of a short Times summary of a Der Spiegel article) whether it's also tied to policy and manpower - sometimes a cash hosepipe is only part of the solution, if indeed anyone really wants to solve this one...
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
#2
Defence is no more of an electoral issue in the Bundesrepublik than it is in the UK. It's absolutely not on the GroKo radar - as witness the act that Mutti kept the Blessed Ursula, scourge of the military ethos, in place in the new government.

The Germans have chosen to maintain at least a toehold on pretty much every capability, in exchange for which, of course, they can't maintain any of them at much more than extremely minimal readiness. They need a major infusion of both talent - recruitment is a problem when no-one has a clear idea what the Bundeswehr's actually *for* and the media have uncovered some pretty unsavoury stuff going on, which tends to deter the youth from seeking roles in defence - and cash. Bundles of cash. Unfeasible amounts of cash, just to lift their current estate out of heavy pres, even into light. Allegedly most new platforms, as they arrive in service, are going straight into pres except for a platoon's worth or so per unit to facilitate familiarisation training, at least.
 
#3
At least it's not just the UK having problems with availability and operational capability...

The Luftwaffe is understood to have only four combat-ready Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets out of a fleet of 128, the latest in a long list of equipment failings in the German armed forces...
...It also followed recent reports that none of the German navy’s six submarines was combat-ready; only nine out of 15 supposedly active frigates were in full service; and only 95 out of 244 German tanks were operational. In February a leaked report on equipment shortages revealed that a tank unit had to use a painted broomstick to simulate a gun barrel on a Nato exercise.
Only about ten of Germany’s Eurofighters are able to take part in operations because of a problem with coolant leaking from the warning system that alerts pilots to potential attack, Spiegel reported. This is in stark contrast to the 82 jets that Germany told Nato were operational, in line with its obligations to the alliance.

Original article here (paywalled)

Budget issues are a concern, as always, but it would be interesting (and beyond the scope of a short Times summary of a Der Spiegel article) whether it's also tied to policy and manpower - sometimes a cash hosepipe is only part of the solution, if indeed anyone really wants to solve this one...
Been ongoing for some time. Von der Leyen was kicking off the other day.
 
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Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
#4
Been ongoing for some time. Van der Leyen was kicking off the other day.
Heh. The irony. Von der Leyen is personally responsible for many of the Bundeswehr's current ills. Old pals of mine still serving make bitter jokes about the need for a Stauffenberg to have another go at the top of the Defence Ministry.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
Well at least they won't start anything.
However in all seriousness with Putin carrying on as he is shouldn't the NATO Forces start taking defence a tad more seriously"? Sorry forgot we're all broke.
 
#6
Heh. The irony. Von der Leyen is personally responsible for many of the Bundeswehr's current ills. Old pals of mine still serving make bitter jokes about the need for a Stauffenberg to have another go at the top of the Defence Ministry.
It's now letting the Froggies strut their stuff within the EU, fair play to them.
 
#7
How their upcoming increase in deployment to Mali will look is going to get interesting.
German cabinet approves increase in troops for Afghanistan
On top to equipment problems such as the Tiger AH not doing so well in the Sahel, the Bundeswehr is on a steep and necessary learning curve about the frictions and challenges of operations.

So far so good, until the greater German public get imminently brought into the picture. Just look at the outrage over a Leopard Tank repair deal for Turkey after Afrin.

This poor sod got lifted in the same border region as the US troops ambushed in Oct 17, so is probably part of a bidding war in between local jihadi groups for either ransom or a propaganda video
German aid worker kidnapped in Niger | DW | 12.04.2018

Germans pay.

In 2003 they coughed €5mil for 15 German overlanders in Mali. in 2005 & 2006, they paid for 3 Germans in Iraq. 1n 2017, 2 were freed in Nigeria after a ransom, where as 1 was killed in the Philippines after no ransom (?Possible Duerte interference?).
 
#8
From Janes


128 Typhoons: 39 available

96 Tornados: 26 available

15 A400M: 3 available

72 CH-53: 16 available
 
#9
Not surprised, the Krauts don’t care and have not for a long time. The problem with NATO is that most members view it as a Social club, who are more than willing to fight to the last American.
 
#10
I can't see defence improving for us or the boxheads until there is a very real existential threat, and I doubt the threat will even be fully acknowledged until there are Russian tanks rolling across the Oder.
 
#11
Not surprised, the Krauts don’t care and have not for a long time. The problem with NATO is that most members view it as a Social club, who are more than willing to fight to the last American.
Ab-so-f***ing-lutely. I see the Donald's view on this completely.

Why should the taxpayer of Kansas subsidise the lack of defence expenditure of Borat-ville, E Europe?????
 
#12
From Janes
128 Typhoons: 39 available
96 Tornados: 26 available
15 A400M: 3 available
72 CH-53: 16 available
DW reports that there are far fewer available than that - it seems that the German airforce have some "flexible" accounting procedures.

Read the links to other articles to get a better idea of the state of the German military.

DW article
 
#13
From Janes


128 Typhoons: 39 available

96 Tornados: 26 available

15 A400M: 3 available

72 CH-53: 16 available

To be fair this was floating around on the Army's website about two weeks ago:

Before we beat someone over the head about the icons, lets talk about the very precise, and lawyer like statement of 331 in active service.
 
#14
Ab-so-f***ing-lutely. I see the Donald's view on this completely.

Why should the taxpayer of Kansas subsidise the lack of defence expenditure of Borat-ville, E Europe?????
The sad part is that the Eastern European countries try with the means however limited they have. The Germans and most of the other Western European countries can, but refuse to. This pisses us off to no end, if you can’t take your own defense seriously **** on out.
 
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Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
They're wrangling over the defence budget at the moment...

Despite promising 2% in Newport 2014 they're due to cut from 1.3% to 1.23% in 2022.

Ans this despite Angela being given an ear bashing in Washington.

Course they could magically increase from 1.23% to 2% between 2022, and 2024... But if you believe that...

Huge diplomatic failure thus far.
 
#16
I was in Germany knocking around with some of their military chaps socially recently and points I picked up on were:

- They are having severe recruitment problems,
- Retention/retirement age recently extended to 62 years of age,
- One chap I met had retired not too long ago as a WO in an IT function and then decided to rejoin when he found he didn't like civvy's and that he could stay in the BW until retiring properly at 62,
- Their SF is suffering the same, operators are getting older as there are few youngsters who are showing an interest. One in his mid-30's said to me, "as long as I can stay with the regiment I will stay until I am 62".

Don't look good.
 
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seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
How their upcoming increase in deployment to Mali will look is going to get interesting.
German cabinet approves increase in troops for Afghanistan
On top to equipment problems such as the Tiger AH not doing so well in the Sahel, the Bundeswehr is on a steep and necessary learning curve about the frictions and challenges of operations.

So far so good, until the greater German public get imminently brought into the picture. Just look at the outrage over a Leopard Tank repair deal for Turkey after Afrin.

This poor sod got lifted in the same border region as the US troops ambushed in Oct 17, so is probably part of a bidding war in between local jihadi groups for either ransom or a propaganda video
German aid worker kidnapped in Niger | DW | 12.04.2018

Germans pay.

In 2003 they coughed €5mil for 15 German overlanders in Mali. in 2005 & 2006, they paid for 3 Germans in Iraq. 1n 2017, 2 were freed in Nigeria after a ransom, where as 1 was killed in the Philippines after no ransom (?Possible Duerte interference?).

Oh good, kidnap a German - the short route to terrorist funding.


Meanwhile in Mali? Is the Ger participation called Afrika Korps by any chance?
 
#18
How their upcoming increase in deployment to Mali will look is going to get interesting.
German cabinet approves increase in troops for Afghanistan
On top to equipment problems such as the Tiger AH not doing so well in the Sahel, the Bundeswehr is on a steep and necessary learning curve about the frictions and challenges of operations.

So far so good, until the greater German public get imminently brought into the picture. Just look at the outrage over a Leopard Tank repair deal for Turkey after Afrin.

This poor sod got lifted in the same border region as the US troops ambushed in Oct 17, so is probably part of a bidding war in between local jihadi groups for either ransom or a propaganda video
German aid worker kidnapped in Niger | DW | 12.04.2018

Germans pay.

In 2003 they coughed €5mil for 15 German overlanders in Mali. in 2005 & 2006, they paid for 3 Germans in Iraq. 1n 2017, 2 were freed in Nigeria after a ransom, where as 1 was killed in the Philippines after no ransom (?Possible Duerte interference?).

Oh good, kidnap a German - the short route to terrorist funding.


Meanwhile in Mali? Is the Ger participation called Afrika Korps by any chance?
The German army and other organisations have been supporting Mali for years, mostly in aid & capacity training.

It was only when the wheels came off in 2012, they had to think about going all shooty
 
#19
I was in Germany knocking around with some of their military chaps socially recently and points I picked up on were:

- They are having severe recruitment problems,
- Retention/retirement age recently extended to 62 years of age,
- One chap I met had retired not too long ago as a WO in an IT function and then decided to rejoin when he found he did;nt like civvy's and that he could stay in the BW until retiring properly at 62,
- Their SF is suffering the same, operators are getting older as their are few youngsters who are showing an interest. One in his mid-30's said to me, "as long as I can stay with the regiment I will stay until I am 62".

Don't look good.
That is concerning....
 
#20
To be fair this was floating around on the Army's website about two weeks ago:

Before we beat someone over the head about the icons, lets talk about the very precise, and lawyer like statement of 331 in active service.
400+ horses in active service in the army according to the latest reports that I could find. God knows how many dead horses are currently in army cook houses.
 

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