German Army neo nazi plot

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Nazism, and fascism, will always exist in some form as long as its philosophical well-spring of socialism endures. In practical terms, the idea of achieving socialism on the basis of class solidarity is dead and buried and has been for some time. All the notionally socialist states in existence today seek to identify on the basis of nation or race, and mostly nation. To that end, one might argue that Mussolini won his argument with Lenin about how the necessary solidarity could be achieved.
I disagree that Nazism and fascism are based on Socialism. Both of the former ideologies have as their objective the close involvement of state and commerce so as to ensure that Capitalist interests are effectively represented, much like in the US today. That’s the exact opposite of the aims of Socialism and, indeed, Hitler himself remarked that he’d only included the word “Socialist” in the party title to make it more appealing to a wider range of people. Which is why he changed the original name of the “German Workers’ Party” (Deutche Arbeiterpartei) to “National-Socialist Workers’ Party” (NSDAP). One of the declared aims of the party was to destroy Marxism.
Talking of nefarious recruitment practices after WWII, do you have anything to say about the use of former Gestapo personnel by the Stasi?
Of all the myths and misinformation propagated by the German government about the GDR, the alleged anti-fascism in East Germany probably comes about the closest to being a bit of a fable. There were certainly far fewer fascists in the GDR than in West Germany (which was lousy with them), but they still existed there all the same and if they had only been very small cogs during the war, they were allowed to live a normal life. However, the Nazis in the GDR who hadn’t entirely divested themselves of the appalling ideology were rarely taken very seriously by the GDR population, in contrast to West Germany, and were tolerated as just a bunch of rather eccentric, backward-looking loonies trying to grab a bit of attention. Furthermore, there was a complete absence of Nazi political parties in the GDR, in contrast to West Germany, where the German People's Union (Deutsche Volksunion – DVU), The Republicans (die Republikaner) and the German National-Socialist Party (Nationalsozialistiche Partei Deutschlands – NPD) are officially recognised.

More importantly, the GDR was much better in bringing former Nazis, and more of them, to justice and in a far quicker time than West Germany – a fact confirmed by a Dutch study of the issue in 1975. Moreover, the GDR applied international law the whole time when punishing ex-Nazis, while West Germany only used international law until 1952, after which it used domestic laws. Also, the key positions in the GDR administration were all occupied by folks who’d never been Nazis – a fact that even the West German history-rewriters grudgingly have no choice to confirm – whereas the first Chancellor of West Germany, Konrad Adenauer, had more Nazis in his cabinet than Hitler.

A further point is that by 1951, over 500,000 former Nazis were back in their admin jobs around West Germany. That also included former Nazi teachers, many of whom hadn’t shed the disgraceful ideology they’d fervently cheered on during the Third Reich. In contrast, all former Nazi teachers in the GDR were banned from the profession and replaced by lay-teachers who actually developed one of the finest education systems in the world and which is still in use in Finland to this day.

MsG
 
Is that so? You mean like West Germany, where, by 1953, over 90 percent of former Nazi judges and state attorneys were back in their old jobs? Where former Nazi generals (some of whom were sought for war crimes) formed the cadre of the Bundeswehr? Where the first foreign minister of West Germany, Heinrich von Brentano, was a former Nazi state attorney in Braunschweig? Where former Nazis formed the cadre of the German foreign service until well into the 1970s? Where the burgeoning West German secret service was made up of former Nazis who were Adolf HItler's East Front Military Intelligence Service? Until 1978, the head of the CID, "die Kriminalpolizei", in Celle in the north of West Germany had been Kriminalhauptkommisar Karl-Heinz Müller, a former member of the SS and a Nazi war criminal who had been sentenced to death in absentia by a French court shortly after the end of WWII for the atrocities he had committed.

And if that not enough, there's this:
The fanatical Nazi Roland Freisler was the best-known and by far the most infamous and vicious “hanging judge” in Nazi Germany, sentencing literally thousands to death, often within minutes of their appearance in court, including the members of the "White Rose" (Weiße Rose) resistance group, Sophie and Hans Scholl. He was also responsible for the death sentences handed down to those involved in the attempted assassination of Adolf Hitler on 20 July 1944.

Freisler was killed by an Allied bomb in February 1945. In 1985, it became known that his widow, Marion Freisler, was not only in receipt of a pension in accordance with the Federal German War Victims Relief Act, but also that she had been awarded a supplementary pension from the Occupational Disturbance Compensation Funds. The quite astonishing grounds given for that additional payment were: “In the case of Roland Freisler surviving the war, he would have achieved a very high income, either as an attorney or as a higher-placed civil servant”. Despite a public outcry, the widow continued to receive her added perks. It wasn’t until 1997 that the law was changed to exclude such grotesque cases.

Must I further out lead, Genosse? I am me sure, that you self numerous other examples find can. And forget not all the many further Nazis, who were in the police, customs and other services employed.

MsG
Easy now sunshine, I'm not one of your pigeons.
No one ever said that there weren't Nazis in the West German Government or in high functions.
Your examples leave a lot to be desired, as do you.
I'm daft even trying to put some sense in your head pigeon shouter but nevertheless I'm going to try.

Brentano was obligated as a prosecutor in 1943, before that he was a lawyer and apparently not a member of the NSDAP. The state of the files is that he did not get his hands dirty and was not a supporter of Nazi ideology.
Karl-Heinz Müller, Müller being an absolutely uncommen name in Germany, lied about his Nazi past with and
following his appointment to the Lower Saxony police department.
Many of the Nazi war criminals did that and I fear a good part of them got away with it. Even Himmler, not exactly unknown to the Allies, was only captured because his ID looked to new to the British MP's.
Destroyed or lost files, a good part of the files which were available behind the iron curtain and the will to help former partners in crime saved many a Nazis bacon in East and West. After they found out about Müller there were only disciplinary proceedings possible.
After the contract on the settlement of questions arising out of war and occupation between the Germans and the Allies, there was no double trial and no double conviction possible. Müller was already once sentenced in Bordeaux. And after that he was not allowed be prosecuted in Germany in respect of the same acts.
Even better, it is not allowed by law to extradite German citizens to other countries.

And shouting to pigeons about Freisler brings absolutely nothing at all, widows were by law entitled to these pensions and unfortunately also the widows of Nazi war criminals.
You can say bugger the law, like some maniac in Nottingham buggers pigeons, but you will end up exactly where you don't want to go when you introduce different laws for different population groups.

After the war, the judiciary, in fact everyone in the government or administration was not eager to prosecute Nazi criminals and those who did, such as Fritz Bauer, had a hard time and sometimes broke.
Try something better Flame'o pants, Globke would be nice or Filbinger.

But back to the point, the GDR had it's fair share of Nazi criminals in high positions and today the majority of Nazis, fascists and other pigeon shouters call from this part of Germany.
 

FHA

LE
Short article in Deutsche Welle
Germany: Bring back conscription to fight extremism, ombudswoman says
Germany should reintroduce compulsory military service to fight the problem of far-right extremism in the army, the parliamentary armed forces commissioner says. The country suspended conscription in 2011.
Germany: Bring back conscription to fight extremism, ombudswoman says | DW | 04.07.2020
Angela Merkel, the CDU and Greens oppose conscription.

Just think, they’ll be able to recreate the Handschar divisions without leaving Germany this time.

Too soon?


Sent from my Phone
 
Furthermore, there was a complete absence of Nazi political parties in the GDR, in contrast to West Germany, where the German People's Union (Deutsche Volksunion – DVU), The Republicans (die Republikaner) and the German National-Socialist Party (Nationalsozialistiche Partei Deutschlands – NPD) are officially recognised.
The party in the GDR for former Nazis was the NDPD, approved by the SED regime. Waste not want not I daresay.
The DVU no longer exists, it merged with the NPD. Number of members after all 3000 more or less warm bodies.
The NPD is not "Nationalsozialistiche Partei Deutschlands" -bad German here, did Deepl **** you up?- but Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands. Die Republikaner on the other hand, with just over 4000 members, are a gigantic organisation. Even before they sank into absolute insignificance, they were constantly monitored by the Verfassungsschutz.
But the important thing is that all these parties with a voter share of less than 0.5% are wasting away and will probably never get back on their feet.
Significantly, these parties achieved their greatest successes after the reunification in East Germany, the former GDR.
 
Easy now sunshine, I'm not one of your pigeons.
No one ever said that there weren't Nazis in the West German Government or in high functions.
Your examples leave a lot to be desired, as do you.
I'm daft even trying to put some sense in your head pigeon shouter but nevertheless I'm going to try.

Brentano was obligated as a prosecutor in 1943, before that he was a lawyer and apparently not a member of the NSDAP. The state of the files is that he did not get his hands dirty and was not a supporter of Nazi ideology.
Karl-Heinz Müller, Müller being an absolutely uncommen name in Germany, lied about his Nazi past with and
following his appointment to the Lower Saxony police department.
Many of the Nazi war criminals did that and I fear a good part of them got away with it. Even Himmler, not exactly unknown to the Allies, was only captured because his ID looked to new to the British MP's.
Destroyed or lost files, a good part of the files which were available behind the iron curtain and the will to help former partners in crime saved many a Nazis bacon in East and West. After they found out about Müller there were only disciplinary proceedings possible.
After the contract on the settlement of questions arising out of war and occupation between the Germans and the Allies, there was no double trial and no double conviction possible. Müller was already once sentenced in Bordeaux. And after that he was not allowed be prosecuted in Germany in respect of the same acts.
Even better, it is not allowed by law to extradite German citizens to other countries.

And shouting to pigeons about Freisler brings absolutely nothing at all, widows were by law entitled to these pensions and unfortunately also the widows of Nazi war criminals.
You can say bugger the law, like some maniac in Nottingham buggers pigeons, but you will end up exactly where you don't want to go when you introduce different laws for different population groups.

After the war, the judiciary, in fact everyone in the government or administration was not eager to prosecute Nazi criminals and those who did, such as Fritz Bauer, had a hard time and sometimes broke.
Try something better Flame'o pants, Globke would be nice or Filbinger.

But back to the point, the GDR had it's fair share of Nazi criminals in high positions and today the majority of Nazis, fascists and other pigeon shouters call from this part of Germany.
Do you have a masochistic element lurking deep within you?
Nazis in high positions? It was Adenauer who said "Wenn man kein sauberes Wasser hat, wirft man kein dreckiges Wasser weg".
 
Why so much surprise? The Nazi ideology never died in (West) Germany. It was only papered over after WWII with ridiculous schemes like "denazification" to disguise the fact that the Septics wanted as many anti-Communists as possible in power to support their own irrational hatred of "Communism". They got exactly that!

MsG
Changed your tune from post 12...
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Changed your tune from post 12...
I went to the bog and had an "ipifannee".:-D:-D:-D
But do keep up, fella. It's about Nazis after the end of WWII at the moment.

MsG
 
Do you have a masochistic element lurking deep within you?
Nazis in high positions? It was Adenauer who said "Wenn man kein sauberes Wasser hat, wirft man kein dreckiges Wasser weg".
Partly, but my real goal ist to be a full member of the Arrse Vermin Club. That only happens when it does funny things with your username like Gunge_Thickie or so.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
I disagree that Nazism and fascism are based on Socialism. Both of the former ideologies have as their objective the close involvement of state and commerce so as to ensure that Capitalist interests are effectively represented, much like in the US today. That’s the exact opposite of the aims of Socialism and, indeed, Hitler himself remarked that he’d only included the word “Socialist” in the party title to make it more appealing to a wider range of people. Which is why he changed the original name of the “German Workers’ Party” (Deutche Arbeiterpartei) to “National-Socialist Workers’ Party” (NSDAP). One of the declared aims of the party was to destroy Marxism.

(snip)
You might disagree but you would be wrong.

To-morrow, Fascists and communists, both persecuted by the police, may arrive at an agreement, sinking their differences until the time comes to share the spoils. I realise that though there are no political affinities between us, there are plenty of intellectual affinities. Like them, we believe in the necessity for a centralised and unitary state, imposing an iron discipline on everyone, but with the difference that they reach this conclusion through the idea of class, we through the idea of the nation. - Mussolini

To be a socialist is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole. Socialism is in its deepest sense service. - Goebbels

All the spats between Marxism, Fascism and Nazism are merely branding disputes.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
All the spats between Marxism, Fascism and Nazism are merely branding disputes.
You might want to rethink that:
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei – Wikipedia

Die Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) war eine in der Weimarer Republik gegründete politische Partei, deren Programm und Ideologie (der Nationalsozialismus) von radikalem Antisemitismus und Nationalismus sowie der Ablehnung von Demokratie und Marxismus bestimmt war.
MsG
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Thanks but I don't rely on Wiki for my understanding of political philosophy.

In socialist terms, Marx was like the Roman Catholic Church. What followed with Fascism and Nazism was much like the Protestant refinements, whereby the doctrine was developed that socialism could not be achieved on the basis of class identity and that the means of production did not need to be owned by the state, merely put to the service of the state. Pretty much everything else is interchangeable.

The essential challenge for all forms of socialism is to develop the basis on which the industrious will subsidise the indolent and achieve the desired endstate of a worker's Shangri La - the USSR, Italy and Germany all came up with different answers although, ultimately, the USSR essentially adopted Mussolini's view.
 

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