Georgia guilty of starting the conflict in South Ossetia

#1
Both rhetoric and actions seem remarkably similar to Serb efforts in Kosovo '98-'99. Then, the world was up in arms and NATO decided to bomb Belgrade due to 'excessive and unreasonable use of force'.

What's the betting NATO doesn't launch airstrikes against the Georgian capital Tbilisi? What's the betting they actually support the Georgian operations?

The Telegraph said:
Georgia pounds Russian-backed rebels in The Caucasus



The Caucasus are on the brink of war after Georgian troops launched a full-scale military assault against Russian-backed rebels in an attempt to wrest control of the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Georgian troops, backed by warplanes, pounded separatist forces on the outskirts of the South Ossetian capital hours after launching an assault on the breakaway region following a short-lived truce.

Georgian artillery shelled Tskhinvali, where government and separatists envoys had been due to meet for Russia-mediated peace talks later, and many houses were ablaze.

Russia, the main backer of the separatists who have controlled the region since a war in the early 1990s, accused Georgia of treachery and urged the world community to avert "massive bloodshed."

The crisis fuelled fears of full-blown war in the region, which is emerging as a vital energy transit route and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.


Cont/...

Reuters said:
Georgia pounds breakaway capital

MEGVREKISI, Georgia (Reuters) - Georgia pounded the capital of its breakaway South Ossetia province with heavy weapons on Thursday after a ceasefire broke down within hours and separatists said they were under siege.

"Georgian troops are storming Tskhinvali (the capital). They are bombing the city," South Ossetia's separatist leader, Eduard Kokoity, told Russian news agencies.

A Reuters reporter saw intense fire from heavy weapons at different locations skirting Tskhinvali. The reporter heard heavy fighting coming from the direction of the city.

The night sky was lit up blue and red by explosions and Georgian forces appeared to be firing Katyusha rockets.

"We have an operation under way to neutralise separatist positions from which they are shelling Georgian villages," a senior interior ministry official told Reuters in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.

Cont/...

BBC said:
Georgia surrounds rebel capital

Georgian troops are nearing the capital of the separatist region of South Ossetia after a night of heavy shelling and air strikes on rebel positions.

Fighting around Tskhinvali resumed just hours after both sides agreed to a ceasefire and Russian-mediated talks.

Georgia says its aim is to finish "a criminal regime" and restore order.

An emergency meeting of the UN Security Council failed to agree on a Russian statement calling on both sides to renounce the use of force.

Cont/...
 
#3
whitecity said:
Both rhetoric and actions seem remarkably similar to Serb efforts in Kosovo '98-'99. Then, the world was up in arms and NATO decided to bomb Belgrade due to 'excessive and unreasonable use of force'.
Nothing like mate

whitecity said:
What's the betting NATO doesn't launch airstrikes against the Georgian capital Tbilisi?
Why would NATO fight Russias battles for them?


whitecity said:
What's the betting they actually support the Georgian operations?
Well as I see it they are putting down an uprising in there own backyard, why wouldnt we support that?
 
#4
And now, from AP newswire:

Georgia announces full military mobilization

TBILISI, Georgia - Georgia's president is announcing a full military mobilization as Georgian troops have moved to regain control over the separatist province of South Ossetia.

Mikhail Saakasvhili says in a televized statement that his government will be calling up reservists as fighting is continuing to rage in South Ossetia's capital.

The move comes as the United Nations Security Council failed to agree early Friday morning on a statement drafted by Russia that would have called on Georgia and its separatist region in South Ossetia to immediately put down their arms.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia_7

For septic stories read Washington Post or Wall Street Journal
 

old_fat_and_hairy

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#6
Makes me wish I was young enough to volunteer. All those mint juleps, Southern belles, all talking like Scarlett O'Hara and the balmy Georgian nights. Can't understand why Russia can get away with attacking part of the USA though.
 
#7
old_fat_and_hairy said:
Makes me wish I was young enough to volunteer. All those mint juleps, Southern belles, all talking like Scarlett O'Hara and the balmy Georgian nights. Can't understand why Russia can get away with attacking part of the USA though.
It would certainly prove interesting if the CIA made another map error (al la Chinese embassy 1999) and bombed Atlanta instead of Tbilisi... :)
 
#8
whitecity said:
Mali said:
whitecity said:
What's the betting they actually support the Georgian operations?
Well as I see it they are putting down an uprising in there own backyard, why wouldnt we support that?
Why not support the uprising as NATO did in Kosovo?
I dont think the Georgians have been ethnically cleansing (read murdering thousands) the seperatists over the previous 5 years as the Serbs were doing to the muslims and Croats of Croatia, Bosnia Hercegovina and Kosovo.
 
#9
Press Association said:
Army moves to retake South Ossetia

Georgia government troops launched a major offensive to regain control over the breakaway province of South Ossetia with fighting raging on the outskirts of the separatist capital.

The separatist officials in South Ossetia said that 15 civilians had been killed in the fighting overnight after Georgia attacked with aircraft and heavy artillery. Many buildings in the regional capital, Tskhinvali, were on fire.

The fighting in South Ossetia raised fears of an all-out war that could draw in Russia, which has peacekeepers in the region and developed close ties with South Ossetia's separatist leadership.

General Mamuka Kurashvili, a Georgian military officer in charge of operations in the region, said on Rustavi 2 television that the Georgian forces moved to "establish a constitutional order in the region."

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow. Most residents of the province have Russian passports.

Georgian units had almost surrounded Tskhinvali, the rebel capital, and had taken five villages in the separatist-held region, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili told a Tbilisi television station.

The Russian Interfax news agency and Georgian Rustavi 2 television said that the Georgian forces reached the outskirts of the city.

If Georgian claims of seizing ground are true, the assault would mark a major expansion of the government's foothold in the breakaway region. Yakobashvili said Georgian officials were doing everything they could to avoid casualties and the destruction of property.

But Boris Chochiyev, a minister in the South Ossetian government, said that Georgian troops shelled the centre of Tskhinvali with truck-launched missiles. Chochiyev asked the Russian government to defend South Ossetians, most of whom hold Russian passports, from what he called aggression.

The Russian government blamed Georgia for the fighting, and called on Tbilisi to commit itself to peaceful resolution of the conflict.
My bold.

This could set a couple of precedents. First, Serbia could use this "(re-establishment) of constitutional order" to justify a military move into Kosovo. Second, if Serbia did that, NATO would be compelled to act against Serbia, thus providing an excuse for Russia to move against Georgia.

Hmmmm!
 
#10
whitecity said:
My bold.

This could set a couple of precedents. First, Serbia could use this "(re-establishment) of constitutional order" to justify a military move into Kosovo. Second, if Serbia did that, NATO would be compelled to act against Serbia, thus providing an excuse for Russia to move against Georgia.

Hmmmm!
Fair point, legally NATO was wrong to support Kosovo as it is a part of Serbia and within there constitutional borders etc etc.

They should have intervened much earlier whilst the serbs where causing mayhem in Bosnia for example.
 
#11
Mali said:
I dont think the Georgians have been ethnically cleansing (read murdering thousands) the seperatists over the previous 5 years as the Serbs were doing to the muslims and Croats of Croatia, Bosnia Hercegovina and Kosovo.
Oh! That old chestnut! And of course non-Serbs were as innocent as pure virgins dressed in white and never did a thing wrong. It was only the Serbs who committed atrocities.
 
#12
Mali said:
whitecity said:
This could set a couple of precedents. First, Serbia could use this "(re-establishment) of constitutional order" to justify a military move into Kosovo. Second, if Serbia did that, NATO would be compelled to act against Serbia, thus providing an excuse for Russia to move against Georgia.
Fair point, legally NATO was wrong to support Kosovo as it is a part of Serbia and within there constitutional borders etc etc.

They should have intervened much earlier whilst the serbs where causing mayhem in Bosnia for example.
I'm not overly concerned about what happens in South Ossetia, per se. It's a long way from me and I'm not going to be affected.

However, the hypocritical policies pursued by the US and the EU lead us to an awkward position. I think what is happening in South Ossetia now is DIRECTLY related to the Kosovo issue. Georgia, Russia and the South Ossetians themselves see violence as the only way to achieve their political aims and now is the time to use it. The mess in Kosovo created by the US/EU has served as a catalyst.
 
#13
whitecity said:
Mali said:
I dont think the Georgians have been ethnically cleansing (read murdering thousands) the seperatists over the previous 5 years as the Serbs were doing to the muslims and Croats of Croatia, Bosnia Hercegovina and Kosovo.
Oh! That old chestnut! And of course non-Serbs were as innocent as pure virgins dressed in white and never did a thing wrong. It was only the Serbs who committed atrocities.
I didnt say that. but the serbs certainly topped a huge amount more people than the other sides and they were doing so in an organised fashion.

At Srebrenica alone it is estimated that they killed 8,000, name me one attrocity commited by any of the other sides that amounted to this much?
 
#14
Mali said:
whitecity said:
Mali said:
I dont think the Georgians have been ethnically cleansing (read murdering thousands) the seperatists over the previous 5 years as the Serbs were doing to the muslims and Croats of Croatia, Bosnia Hercegovina and Kosovo.
Oh! That old chestnut! And of course non-Serbs were as innocent as pure virgins dressed in white and never did a thing wrong. It was only the Serbs who committed atrocities.
I didnt say that. but the serbs certainly topped a huge amount more people than the other sides and they were doing so in an organised fashion.

At Srebrenica alone it is estimated that they killed 8,000, name me one attrocity commited by any of the other sides that amounted to this much?
In fact if you totalled all the alledged attrocities commited by non-serbs it wouldn't even amount to a fraction of the 8,000 murdered at Srebrenica.
 
#15
Mali said:
I didnt say that. but the serbs certainly topped a huge amount more people than the other sides and they were doing so in an organised fashion.

At Srebrenica alone it is estimated that they killed 8,000, name me one attrocity commited by any of the other sides that amounted to this much?

In fact if you totalled all the alledged attrocities commited by non-serbs it wouldn't even amount to a fraction of the 8,000 murdered at Srebrenica.
Let's not get into specifics for now, but it seems a bit daft to use Srebrenica as the 'justification' for our actions over Kosovo. Srebrenica was an atrocity committed by the VRS (BiH) in 1995 not the VJ (Serbia) in 1998. It's like saying Israel has a justification to bomb Tehran based on Kurdish bombs exploding in Ankara.

Yes, the Serbs were rather naughty in Kosovo, and went beyond what is acceptable in our eyes. Looking at the pictures and reading the reports, the Georgians are now using significantly greater force, with more indiscriminate weapons than the VJ.
 
#16
whitecity said:
Let's not get into specifics for now, but it seems a bit daft to use Srebrenica as the 'justification' for our actions over Kosovo. Srebrenica was an atrocity committed by the VRS (BiH) in 1995 not the VJ (Serbia) in 1998. It's like saying Israel has a justification to bomb Tehran based on Kurdish bombs exploding in Ankara.
Yes, the Serbs were rather naughty in Kosovo, and went beyond what is acceptable in our eyes.
Im not saying it is a justification for the Kosovan intervention. What i am saying is that the Serbs were 'a bit naughty' as you put it for several years leading up to Kosovo. Murdering, ethnic cleansing areas of land and generally being *********. Once they moved on to Kosovo enough was enough and NATO intervened, had the attrocities in Bosnia never been commited i doubt very much whether there would have been an intervention in kosovo.
whitecity said:
Looking at the pictures and reading the reports, the Georgians are now using significantly greater force, with more indiscriminate weapons than the VJ.
yeah but there arent any concentration camps and mass graves yet are there? Im not bothered what happens in georgia to be honest, I just dont think there is any resemblance to what is happening there and what transpired in Kosovo.

Best Regards

Paul
 
#17
whitecity said:
Mali said:
whitecity said:
This could set a couple of precedents. First, Serbia could use this "(re-establishment) of constitutional order" to justify a military move into Kosovo. Second, if Serbia did that, NATO would be compelled to act against Serbia, thus providing an excuse for Russia to move against Georgia.
Fair point, legally NATO was wrong to support Kosovo as it is a part of Serbia and within there constitutional borders etc etc.

They should have intervened much earlier whilst the serbs where causing mayhem in Bosnia for example.
I'm not overly concerned about what happens in South Ossetia, per se. It's a long way from me and I'm not going to be affected.

However, the hypocritical policies pursued by the US and the EU lead us to an awkward position. I think what is happening in South Ossetia now is DIRECTLY related to the Kosovo issue. Georgia, Russia and the South Ossetians themselves see violence as the only way to achieve their political aims and now is the time to use it. The mess in Kosovo created by the US/EU has served as a catalyst.
I think the notion that Kosovo is to blame for all the worlds problems with drives for self determination overly stated by many who wish to serve some form of an agenda to debase international bodies.

Besides, the Ossetian Succession has not been recoginised by the Georgia, UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation. Did I miss anyone out?

As it is, aren't Ossetians are a bunch of Alan's, or as they are more commonly known "Iranians". Hardly flavour of the month so to speak with the international community.
 
#18
Imagine starting a war while everyone's eyes are elsewhere. What's going to make more headlines, the Olympics or a scrap somewhere most Westerners have never heard of?
 
#19
Mali said:
Im not saying it is a justification for the Kosovan intervention. What i am saying is that the Serbs were 'a bit naughty' as you put it for several years leading up to Kosovo. Murdering, ethnic cleansing areas of land and generally being *********.
So if expat Englishfolk in Spain act like arrseholes, it's a good reason to dislike all Englishfolk and punish those in the UK?

Mali said:
Once they moved on to Kosovo enough was enough and NATO intervened, had the attrocities in Bosnia never been commited i doubt very much whether there would have been an intervention in kosovo.
You may be right with that. But you are forgetting that the calculation that Serbs were bad and needed to be punished was/is based upon a biased understanding of the YU civil war.

Mali said:
yeah but there arent any concentration camps and mass graves yet are there?
Where were the concentration camps and mass graves in Kosovo prior to 24 March 1999?

Mali said:
Im not bothered what happens in georgia to be honest, I just dont think there is any resemblance to what is happening there and what transpired in Kosovo.
:)

In-Limbo said:
I think the notion that Kosovo is to blame for all the worlds problems with drives for self determination overly stated by many who wish to serve some form of an agenda to debase international bodies.
I've never come across anybody suggesting that notion is valid.

Why is Georgia attempting to reassert its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia at this point in time? Answer. The further Kosovo trundles down the road to full sovereignty, the more South Ossetia and Abkhazia will do likewise - backed by Russia using Kosovo as the justification.

In-Limbo said:
Besides, the Ossetian Succession has not been recoginised by the Georgia, UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation. Did I miss anyone out?
It hasn't been recognised by anyone ... yet! It does not serve Russia's interest to recognise them officially as independent. But in the future, depending on the final outcome in Kosovo. Then we're into new international-realtions territory.
 
#20
Mali said:
Im not saying it is a justification for the Kosovan intervention. What i am saying is that the Serbs were 'a bit naughty' as you put it for several years leading up to Kosovo. Murdering, ethnic cleansing areas of land and generally being *********.
whitecity said:
So if expat Englishfolk in Spain act like arrseholes, it's a good reason to dislike all Englishfolk and punish those in the UK?
Now your just being a dick and taking my words literally, yes if the definition of being an arrsehole is murdering thousands of innocents then yeah.

Mali said:
Once they moved on to Kosovo enough was enough and NATO intervened, had the attrocities in Bosnia never been commited i doubt very much whether there would have been an intervention in kosovo.
whitecity said:
You may be right with that. But you are forgetting that the calculation that Serbs were bad and needed to be punished was/is based upon a biased understanding of the YU civil war.
No it isnt
Are you a sebian or related to one? Because you certainly seem to hold a bias. i'll freely admit to being married to a Croat and having lived in Croatia from '91 - '97 so i am biased, but also very well informed.

Mali said:
yeah but there arent any concentration camps and mass graves yet are there?
whitecity said:
Where were the concentration camps and mass graves in Kosovo prior to 24 March 1999?
I was referring to Bosnia and Croatia in the preceding years.
 

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