'Generation of Innovators appointed to run the military'

#61
It isn't. A retired air chief marshal (who has already achieved the highest rank possible) flying air cadets at the weekend whilst serving as a JO in the Reserve is an entirely different issue to people in a pyramid vying for promotion. You can see that, surely?
Did you miss the bit about Professional Aviators? You seem focused on the relatively few who have made it to the top, but seem happy just to do the job they actually joined up for and don't mind no longer carrying the rank, rather than the many who decided at an early stage that they would be happier just doing the job they joined up to do, and have completely eschewed the rank.
 
#62
Correct

I dont think that they have any
It seems that you are agreeing with me!
So what you are saying is.......

A key part of innovation and continuous improvement is the PDCA (Plan - Do - Check - Act) cycle, where stopping 'non starter' ideas that appear to make sense is the 'Check' part of the cycle. This is something that CDS/1SL/CGS and CAS, and other senior Officers do.

The problem (SDSR 10 remains a good example) is politicians interrupting, and being unable to learn from failure. I am sure I started a thread about that..
 
#63
Did you miss the bit about Professional Aviators? You seem focused on the relatively few who have made it to the top, but seem happy just to do the job they actually joined up for and don't mind no longer carrying the rank, rather than the many who decided at an early stage that they would be happier just doing the job they joined up to do, and have completely eschewed the rank.
I can see the difference completely. Using the example of a VR pilot on an AEF is not an example of it though.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#64
Asking questions designed to make you look more modern, up to date, in the loop etc doesn't show any particular skill or talent other than to come across as a sneering know it all.
You have a bit of a chippy disposition there my old. My question was to better understand your POV and to better determine why some of your comments come across the way they do.

You are inside a bubble, a career of pyramid climbing which doesn't necessarily let you see the whole picture
But, it allows me a far better view than those outside. Who can only glean information second hand at best. When I'm actively involved in many involved in a wide array of activities and interact with colleagues in similar positions I can oddly get quite a wide view very easily and at ground truth.

You can cut the sneering contemptuous approach and answer the questions regarding defence chiefs as innovators (more for less etc) or join the ignore list (little chance actually as pointing out the emperors new clothes is quite enjoyable).
And where am I sneering or contemptuous?

Lets be radical, rather than defend the indefensible just be honest, yes the RN has serious retention issues as does all of the services and in fact doing the same with less is difficult. The RN has never had the PR guff surrounding it that the RAF has and really it doesn't need it.
Who's defended anything - I simply point out a huge amount of work has and continue to be put into problems that the Navy at VSO really recognises but equally knows there is no simple magic wand for. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. And that's the benefit of being inside, I see the problems and the efforts on-going, plus the realities.

The only service which seems to do as it is asked day in day out are the RFA.
I could disagree with lots of examples.

Perhaps we should look at how the RFA works and model our remaining services along its lines.
Why? The RFA has it's own issues and their model is not particularly suitable for the training and force development required for fighting component of a modern warship. Even forward basing, as we're moving towards, will challenge the training, currency and certification needed to fight effectively. The RFA, simplistically, move a relatively simple ship with a cargo to a location and are paid for the extended durations they spend on task. The fighting element is another level of complexity.

And in a non sneering/contemptuous manner - that's why looking in from the outside isn't that useful, something DM readers need to understand.

If the US wants us to sail ships with them around Taiwan then perhaps they could contribute?
The US contributes to the UK and the RN in an enormous matter across a whole range of capabilities. For every effort we make with them we get a disproportionate level of return, particularly in areas we cannot address here. The world would be a lonelier place if we had less friends.....

Until then the Govt chiefs (yes those civilians) need to be told that we cant do certain things until they pony up the cash to make it happen. Who will tell them? Certainly not the generation of innovators who really seem to be more interested in a knighthood and elevation.
Right thats me explained, you were saying?
Again - I see some of these people often and see the range of issues they deal with. I'm not struck that they are more interested in peerages given the amount of time they expend looking at the challenges a large entity such as the RN faces. That's quite a naïve view.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#65
Surely if an organisation is a pyramid with everyone fighting for promotion, then you end up with nothing but yes men with people reluctant to tell the truth to superiors
Again a naïve view, there are plenty of people who challenge their Seniors and provide contrary views. It's how you do it that's important. This idea that everyone just says "aye aye" and cracks on is facile.
 
#66
Again a naïve view, there are plenty of people who challenge their Seniors and provide contrary views. It's how you do it that's important. This idea that everyone just says "aye aye" and cracks on is facile.
That was not what I intended to suggest - I was simply responding to the suggestion that it should be a pyramid where everyone is fighting for the next job up as their main concern. @ugly was criticising the leadership for not being a strictly competitive pyramid, so pointing out the risk of boss pleasing was sensible in my view.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#67
You have a bit of a chippy disposition there my old. My question was to better understand your POV and to better determine why some of your comments come across the way they do.
If being a concerned taxpayer makes me chippy then I'll happily wear that moniker, labels are frankly pathetic, championing the cause because the top dog has declared the newest buzzword is frankly pathetic, buzzwords wont restore the navy to an effective fighting force, they wont restore any of our current defence services (soon to become a single defence force if the bean counters get their way) and frankly moaning about lack of senior engineering staff and retention (not necessarily you but plenty of other fish heads have) on the one hand and the other waving Chairman 1SL's little pamphlet of buzzwords in the other looks crap. We do support you, chippy little references to the DM are unworthy of you and certainly dont bother with tomorrows fish wrappers.

But, it allows me a far better view than those outside. Who can only glean information second hand at best. When I'm actively involved in many involved in a wide array of activities and interact with colleagues in similar positions I can oddly get quite a wide view very easily and at ground truth.
Agreed, coming on here and giving out the info is inviting contrary views, remember no two persons at a meeting remember the same things being said. That is why minutes are issued. Do you and the chap next to you hold the same views or impressions? I doubt it


And where am I sneering or contemptuous?
Referring to the DM and being chippy for a start

Who's defended anything - I simply point out a huge amount of work has and continue to be put into problems that the Navy at VSO really recognises but equally knows there is no simple magic wand for. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. And that's the benefit of being inside, I see the problems and the efforts on-going, plus the realities.
You are, you are attempting to do it now. So rather than shout down contrary views how about explaining how you see them but its as you see them not every other person involved and yes I do know a fair few sailors and officers not just from here. I did have a life before the internet!
I could disagree with lots of examples.
As could we all
Why? The RFA has it's own issues and their model is not particularly suitable for the training and force development required for fighting component of a modern warship. Even forward basing, as we're moving towards, will challenge the training, currency and certification needed to fight effectively. The RFA, simplistically, move a relatively simple ship with a cargo to a location and are paid for the extended durations they spend on task. The fighting element is another level of complexity.
I didn't say the RN should copy it, I just said it was better, they certainly do have bone career courses that keep them from their jobs however they have great terms when it comes to time off. after deployments. The army is in the same boat, if you constantly deploy troops then they will jack because they want a better life.
And in a non sneering/contemptuous manner - that's why looking in from the outside isn't that useful, something DM readers need to understand.
There you go again with the DM reference! I am sufficiently grown up and manage big enough projects to understand how to form my own opinions, just because they are different to yours doesn't mean they are wrong just different.
The US contributes to the UK and the RN in an enormous matter across a whole range of capabilities. For every effort we make with them we get a disproportionate level of return, particularly in areas we cannot address here. The world would be a lonelier place if we had less friends.....

They dont pick up the tab and really shouldn't, we should be able to stand up on our own and hopefully one day we will, that or we will have a navy that the beancounters like. Dust of the pedalos


Again - I see some of these people often and see the range of issues they deal with. I'm not struck that they are more interested in peerages given the amount of time they expend looking at the challenges a large entity such as the RN faces. That's quite a naïve view.
Again no its just a different view, one that is formed from years of watching them climb to the top of the pyramid of bodies
Not sure if all of it was aimed at me in my little DM dominated world whatever that is!
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#68
Not sure if all of it was aimed at me in my little DM dominated world whatever that is!
No, it wasn't, you are making the inferences as you seem to want to have a spat because you don't agree with my views, or seem unwilling to even accept someone elses views, based on current experiences and interactions, might actually hold water.

Your latter response is quite bizarre - I'm not sure where you see anyone supporting buzzwords and I'd love to see your evidence to support the assertion that "beancounters want a single defence force"?

Far from shouting down contrary views I offer the view, as seen from inside the organisation, first hand, as a counterpoint to your views that are second hand at best.

You did say model on the RFA - and it's not better, it is just different (and changing too) and they do a very different job - the reason we have different TACOS. Time off and salary are just parts of the issue, the RFA job is for many bone and none challenging (and I've two sitting yards from me right now). The bigger issue for many is planning and an ability influence their future, a lot of recent years issues platform availability/tempo/branch issues have converged and created a wicked problem, that is slowly being unpicked but is unlikely to ever be fully resolved, because perfection and stability are unlikely to ever occur.

The US really does pick up the tab in a wider manner of way, some fiscal, some not and often the non fiscal ways are more important and allow us to NOT have to spend our own money. Whether you like it, accept it or otherwise, we gain enormously from the relationship.

Watching Seniors promote and working with them and understanding what they do and why are entirely different things and that the point I'm trying to make. You "see" one thing, "read" another and make inferences or get impressions that may or may not exist. The next VCDS is a great example, you will not find a more hard working, intelligent and selfless individual. I cannot for one moment contemplate that he is in it for a shiny bit of tin. Not in his character. You can generalise, but when you examine individuals that may/may not fall apart.

Getting tedious now. /YA
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
#69
If its tedious leave it alone, I dont agree with you, its the internet, live with it or you will bust a blood vessel, remember us tedious folk also inhabit our MP's offices and generate the questions that your boss has to answer!
 
#70
If its tedious leave it alone, I dont agree with you, its the internet, live with it or you will bust a blood vessel, remember us tedious folk also inhabit our MP's offices and generate the questions that your boss has to answer!
R Card Walt.
 
#71
Surely if an organisation is a pyramid with everyone fighting for promotion, then you end up with nothing but yes men with people reluctant to tell the truth to superiors?
F**k me, I really don't know where to start. You have very clearly never met this bloke:

1544108505529.png


Deputy Commander Operations | RAF Live

Or this one:

1544108651549.png


https://www.airpower.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Air-Marshal-Sean-Reynolds-CBE-DFC-RAF.pdf

Or this bloke:

1544108741521.png


Gavin Parker - Wikipedia

And I am sure the Army, Navy and RM have equally forthright and focussed characters...............!!!!!
 
#72
F**k me, I really don't know where to start. You have very clearly never met this bloke:

View attachment 365485

Deputy Commander Operations | RAF Live

Or this one:

View attachment 365487

https://www.airpower.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Air-Marshal-Sean-Reynolds-CBE-DFC-RAF.pdf

Or this bloke:

View attachment 365488

Gavin Parker - Wikipedia

And I am sure the Army, Navy and RM have equally forthright and focussed characters...............!!!!!
Hey wait a minute before blindfolding me and handing me a cigarette...

FFS the armed forces are a pyramid organisation and the folk should all be vying for the top places - ugly

Surely if an organisation is a pyramid with everyone fighting for promotion, then you end up with nothing but yes men with people reluctant to tell the truth to superiors? - Yokel

Implying that the armed forces are not strictly a pyramid structure and should not be as it would lead to behaviour which generally does not happen with the current system.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#73
Implying that the armed forces are not strictly a pyramid structure and should not be as it would lead to behaviour which generally does not happen with the current system.
Hang on I believe tat they are a pyramid, its how it works, this is why there are civilian Ministers to take advice. If they take that advice or not is the responsibility of the advisor and the ministers peers and employer.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#74
Hang on I believe tat they are a pyramid, its how it works, this is why there are civilian Ministers to take advice. If they take that advice or not is the responsibility of the advisor and the ministers peers and employer.
Strongly disagree with that - the responsibility for accepting (or otherwise) lies solely with the Ministers and having briefed one very recently I can tell you our (MoD) responsibility solely lies in ensuring they are offered honest accurate up-to date information. Whether they chose to accept that it out of our hands.

You can take a horse to water....
 
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#75
Strongly disagree with that - the responsibility for accepting (or otherwise) lies solely with the Ministers and having briefed one very recently I can tell you our (MoD) responsibility solely lies in ensuring they are offered honest accurate up-to date information. Whether they chose to accept that it out of our hands.

You can take a horse to water....
I agree, the person giving a briefing or otherwise passing information to a Minister is only one of an Army of minions paid to pass information.

The decision makers are the important people in that particular chain and with regard to the MoD almost, if not totally, civilian.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#76
The decision makers are the important people in that particular chain and with regard to the MoD almost, if not totally, civilian.
Poor or ineffective advice forms poor or ineffective decisions!
 
#77
So what you are saying is.......

A key part of innovation and continuous improvement is the PDCA (Plan - Do - Check - Act) cycle, where stopping 'non starter' ideas that appear to make sense is the 'Check' part of the cycle. This is something that CDS/1SL/CGS and CAS, and other senior Officers do.

The problem (SDSR 10 remains a good example) is politicians interrupting, and being unable to learn from failure. I am sure I started a thread about that..
Unfortunately the "Check" bit rarely happens because that would mean admitting the "Plan" bit and the "Do" bit were fundamentally idiotic. I mean admitting you'd made a mistake is tantamount to actually learning from it so as not to make the same mistake again, and that would never do.
As for being a pyramid organisation? The way things are going it won't be long before it's an upside pyramid organisation.........
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#78
Poor or ineffective advice forms poor or ineffective decisions!
Indeed it will, if the individual has (a) chosen to accept preferred advice and (b) been given advice that is poor or ineffectual.

You cannott force someone to take your advice, in the same way I cannot force you to accept my point of view. Noting that advice is guidance or recommendations OFFERED with regard to prudent action.
 
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