'Generation of Innovators appointed to run the military'

[ugly]

Oi fish head (A2 Matelot) why the old? Touch a nerve did I? You dark blue sorts have been moaning that too many boats are being scrapped, boats are now counted as ships and the RFA has a greater fleet and does more active service than the Andrew. TACOS and retention are poor and you are borrowing sailors from other countries and trying to pinch our about to retire REME sorts. Yet you still have a fleet commander and more admirals than gray funnel line war canoes. Whats it to be one or the other?

 

[Bouillabaisse]

What differences can or do these people actually make? Standing a little way outside but looking in I cannot see much that has changed in the RN under various 1SL's. What change has Jones made to the RN in his tenure, or Carter to the army?

 

[alfred_the_great]

What differences can or do these people actually make? Standing a little way outside but looking in I cannot see much that has changed in the RN under various 1SL's. What change has Jones made to the RN in his tenure, or Carter to the army?

Well, Z (after lots and lots of briefing) pulled up his big boy pants, and told SoS and the PM the RN will now be doing “less with more”.

Perhaps the single biggest thing every 1SL between Jock Slater and Phil Jones has done is kept CEPP going.

 

[Bouillabaisse]

Well, Z (after lots and lots of briefing) pulled up his big boy pants, and told SoS and the PM the RN will now be doing “less with more”.

Perhaps the single biggest thing every 1SL between Jock Slater and Phil Jones has done is kept CEPP going.

How I forgot that, I don't know!

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Well, Z (after lots and lots of briefing) pulled up his big boy pants, and told SoS and the PM the RN will now be doing “less with more”.

Perhaps the single biggest thing every 1SL between Jock Slater and Phil Jones has done is kept CEPP going.

Hmmmm, at any expense?

 

[alfred_the_great]

Hmmmm, at any expense?

I think the view was you can re-generate frigates once they're gone, but you'll never get a second bite at CVF (as was).


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[chimera]

Patrick Sanders would have been a shoe in for CGS after C-S, so it will be interesting to see who comes into the 3* Field Army post next.

 

[beardyProf]

Someone has been reading TD....
The British Army - Transformation in an Age of Complexity - Think Defence

I'm with him all the way until he starts talking about making everything Strike. Effectively it's get there in rush and hope nobody serious turns up, which is fine and dandy right until that 'Oh shit' moment when the first Armata hoves over the hill. He's creating a French army and you can look at the liberation of Kuwait to work out who was the most use, us or them, in that conflict. He is also ignoring the severity of Russian action, we may have interests in the Middle East, which is where Strike is clearly meant to go and do something, but we don't have critical interests. If you're doing a safety assessment which is more important a likely accident in which you crack a couple of ribs or an unlikely accident in which you die. On the safety matrix that's a no brainer and I'd suggest it should be on the defence risk assessment as well. I'd say he isn't really being very radical as this seems to be the way the army is actually heading. He also completely fails to address the total pointlessness of light infantry and cavalry.

I'd suggest a 2 division army of 12 MBT armoured, 20 infantry [8 tracked 12 wheeled], about 130 AS90/MLRS, 4 armoured recce, 30+ attack helicopters. Then a slightly enlarged special forces group, 2 battalions, with helicopter mobility. Say 25,000 fighting men. Get ruthless with admin and a total army of 45-50K. If that doesn't add up then come down to one real division of 8 MBT plus 8 Warrior and halve the other support accordingly.

 

[Caecilius]

Patrick Sanders would have been a shoe in for CGS after C-S, so it will be interesting to see who comes into the 3* Field Army post next.

I wouldn't necessarily discount him moving sideways. Deverell was being touted as a possible CGS.

 

[smallbrownprivates]

I'm with him all the way until he starts talking about making everything Strike. Effectively it's get there in rush and hope nobody serious turns up, which is fine and dandy right until that 'Oh shit' moment when the first Armata hoves over the hill. He's creating a French army and you can look at the liberation of Kuwait to work out who was the most use, us or them, in that conflict. He is also ignoring the severity of Russian action, we may have interests in the Middle East, which is where Strike is clearly meant to go and do something, but we don't have critical interests. If you're doing a safety assessment which is more important a likely accident in which you crack a couple of ribs or an unlikely accident in which you die. On the safety matrix that's a no brainer and I'd suggest it should be on the defence risk assessment as well. I'd say he isn't really being very radical as this seems to be the way the army is actually heading. He also completely fails to address the total pointlessness of light infantry and cavalry.

I'd suggest a 2 division army of 12 MBT armoured, 20 infantry [8 tracked 12 wheeled], about 130 AS90/MLRS, 4 armoured recce, 30+ attack helicopters. Then a slightly enlarged special forces group, 2 battalions, with helicopter mobility. Say 25,000 fighting men. Get ruthless with admin and a total army of 45-50K. If that doesn't add up then come down to one real division of 8 MBT plus 8 Warrior and halve the other support accordingly.

I'm not sure your 2 division proposal fits within the planning parameters he gave himself of "the finance cupboard is bare, what means can you work within?"

Have you had a look at his light strike brigade concept? If you look at it as a slightly over spec'd toyota horde for the risk and casualty adverse, its not too bad and with liberal use of some MOOG RIWPs, it could make the light cavalry concept really have teeth.

I've been listening to some podcasts about the Mongols and a little tidbit I'm wanting to follow up is on their influence on russian strategy/tactics and if there was some knowledge transfer in between the wars to Germany.

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

light cavalry concept

Concept? Hastily thought up cap badge preservation exercise, nothing more.

 

[smallbrownprivates]

Concept? Hastily thought up cap badge preservation exercise, nothing more.

really? regimental concerns and capbadge battles driving defence policy and choices?

 

[ugly]

really? regimental concerns and capbadge battles driving defence policy and choices?

There was no other real reason for creating SFSG with 1 Para as the main component otherwise was there?

 

[The_Duke]

There was no other real reason for creating SFSG with 1 Para as the main component otherwise was there?

Quite. Couldn’t chop an undermanned Jock Bn for political reasons, so a well manned YorkshireBn was up for the chop instead.

A bit of sleight of hand, a shifty move from one budget to another et voila an Inf Bn disappears from the orbat without actually having to cut anything.

 

[beardyProf]

I'm not sure your 2 division proposal fits within the planning parameters he gave himself of "the finance cupboard is bare, what means can you work within?"

I'm assuming that reducing the army from 80K to 45K and a lot fewer VSO's would save a bob or two. My principle is have a good army however small.

Have you had a look at his light strike brigade concept? If you look at it as a slightly over spec'd toyota horde for the risk and casualty adverse, its not too bad and with liberal use of some MOOG RIWPs, it could make the light cavalry concept really have teeth.

As I said when the first real MBT comes over the hill it's brown trouser time. Small story, a few years ago a regimental old comrade was treated to day on the ranges when my mob were CR2 turret crew replacements. He got to watch them firing at Lulworth. His comment to us afterwards was along the lines of 'Thank god they have a decent tank and wouldn't have to face what we did with Sherman'. He's now dead, but I know what he'd say about Ajax as a medium tank.

I've been listening to some podcasts about the Mongols and a little tidbit I'm wanting to follow up is on their influence on russian strategy/tactics and if there was some knowledge transfer in between the wars to Germany.

If the Russian Army were to be modernised Mongols they would have a mixture of helicopters and a Jackal equivalent. They haven't, they aren't. They would also have a signal system superior to all their adversaries and be a regular army facing, certainly in the west, a mixture of, at best, semi professionals. A European medieval army in modern terms would be 60+% conscript light infantry, with rifles/gpmg and LAW80, in trucks [at best], 20-40% MBTs without radios owned by their vehicle commanders, or at best the squadron leaders. The system for refueling/replening these tasks would be up to the owner, while the Mongols would have a fully systematic log corps.
You have to remember the Mongols broke all the rules of war 'don't invade Russia it's too big, don't invade China there's too many of them, don't invade Afghanistan there's nothing there and they will never give up'. Wrong, wrong, wrong invade and conquer all three so effectively you can still hear granny frightening the kids with tales of Genghis Khan. It's also worth noting the 'hordes' were frequently smaller than their opponents, they just seemed bigger due to their speed of movement.

 

[smallbrownprivates]

It's also worth noting the 'hordes' were frequently smaller than their opponents, they just seemed bigger due to their speed of movement.

Which is the part I'm interested in; aggressive combat recce, moving forward at speed, bypassing where necessary and innovative use of mass artillery. Facing them with a MBT teutonic knight equivalent is not ideal, rather develop a fires supported dealying screen, relying on mobility more than protection?

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

really? regimental concerns and capbadge battles driving defence policy and choices?

Welcome to reality

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

I think the view was you can re-generate frigates once they're gone, but you'll never get a second bite at CVF (as was).


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Remind me - just how many frigates have you regenerated in the last few decades?

 

[alfred_the_great]

Remind me - just how many frigates have you regenerated in the last few decades?

None.


But at least the aim was selected and maintained, and we now about two years from CEPP.

 

[Yokel]

More importantly than CEPP by itself, the Admirals managed to fend off the idea that the RN could be transformed into some sort of low tech force for counter piracy and maritime security roles only