Discussion in 'Multinational HQ' started by Phil306, Nov 24, 2005.
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Good God. I am sensible enough to realise that this is not a view held by most Yanks. Videos like this are part of the problem, they are NOT part of the solution.
Yes the Eastern and Western worlds are vastly different, but engendering fear of all Muslims is as stupid as it is dangerous.
Claiming that the torture of Iraqi prisoners is just a "joke" is one I feel is sadly lost on the Arab nations of the world. Part of the reason the West are perceived as "infidels" by a minority of Arabs is partly because of images like these. Hard to spout about freedom and democracy and how good our way of life is and then have images like these published around the world.
Phil306 - you posted the link - don't you think you should give your opinion rather than just hang it out on a limb.
The way this is put it would appear you approve of the video.
In my opinion it is a sad piece of work but expected. It is the sort of jingoism that goes around all wars. However, this one seem to go that bit further and suggest that what Islam does is bad and they should be punished, but if 'we' carry out the same actions, well it is OK. This video is on the same lines as the ones put up by Al Jazeera (sp?). We should put the same weight to it's worth.
Thanks for the link... You didn't leave any comment but obviously you just posted as a joke and think its the funniest and most ridiculous video you've ever seen... Ain't that right???? No???? Oh dear Philly... what are we going to do with you?
Too bad the guy who created it can't even tell the difference between Patton and George C. Scott.
An absolutely jaw dropping over-simplification of the issues.
Did old blood and guts say in a speech that we`d grease are tank tracks with the guts of dead germans?? Top bloke!!!!
The sad thing is that there are a fair few of the cousins who do think in terms that simplistic. Yea Gods, they are currently trying to justify half drowning people, "disappearing" people into "black" prisons and that whole nonsense of Guantanamo, thats a damn sight more than some unpleasant bullying.
The ends DO NOT justify the means. We are supposed to be standing up for individual liberty, freedom, democracy etc etc. We make ourselves as bad as our enemies when we descend to their level, or even give that impression.
"Panty-waisted liberal" I'm not, all for extreme violence when required ! - but we need to tell the cousins where they are getting it wrong - and taking the easy way out by dodging "the rules" aint the way forward.
My opinion on the video is quite simple: There are parts of the video which are quite true, parts which are very far fetched. The video itself, in my opinion, for I do not know who made it or his/her original intent, was meant toward an AMERICAN audience. I've said, many times in fact, Americans, overall in general, don't have the same grasp on world politics, etc then other countries; especially Europeans. Most Americans can't even tell you where England is, let alone where Iraq/Afghanistan is.
The "liberals" referred too in the video, here in the United States, are very much as referred too. They have no real grasp on world events, world society, etc. They live very sheltered lives and have NO CLUE what the real world is. They sit in their homes, reading and thinking what life should be; not what life really is. Moreover, they have no idea what the real world is. They REFUSE to believe there is "evil," or "bad" in this world. At night they dream of "sugar plum fairies," not the fact some mother just took her 7 kids and put bullets in their heads. In fact, they refuse to believe it even occurred and believe its a right wing "plot" to keep the death penalty around.
Do agree with the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq? No, I do not. However, when you look at it in context of the video, on that scale, its as the video said: Beheading someone is a helluva lot worse, then whipping some guy and tying them up together. However, here in the US, the liberals didn't bat an eye at the American's captured, tortured, and beheaded. Many, in fact, MANY condoned the action. Many clap and cheer everytime an American Solider, or for that matter, a British Soldier is killed. MANY American liberals here, fund the terrorists, Iraqi's, etc KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY. Just as many Americans here fund the IRA.
The video itself is humerous, childish, etc. However, it does have some good points too it.
I think the video is pish but saying that somethings have a point.
Question is; could America have prevented 9/11 or at least saved more people before hand?
Ah well, we'd never know. As far as I am concerned that alot of yanks do go around dazed and confused. Thinking they are the best country/military in the world. Thats arrogance.
Either way a wake up call has been made
They are a new country making the mistakes others have made in the past
Err what? I am sure that there are many people who have a very closetted view of the world. Is that a crime? I'm glad that there are people who have no concept of what the "real world" of blood and guts is. Isn't that what we are fighting for?
The people seen beheading that poor man in the video TRUElY believe that we are evil.
We in the West see that barbarity and think that they are evil.
As for a woman putting bullets into her children. Tragedy. But for that one damaged mother, how many hundreds of thousands more mothers a loving and supportive?
We have different standards, whether it is cutting a mans head off or tying up and whipping prisoners; it's all WRONG. You can't say, well that's worse than that.
There will always be idiotic liberals who chose to play Devil's Advocate probably because they enjoy being difficult rather than because that's what they believe. That is an unfortunate by-product of a free society and long may it continue.
The video is moronic, and what exactly has it got to do with George S. Patton?
...the United States seems to be divided at present between:
- 'liberals' who seem to inhabit an idealised and utterly unreal world of make-believe in which he enemies of the USA are just people whose grievances haven't been accommodated yet. What seems to turn a lot of people against these liberals is that they are most prominently represented by such luminaries as Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Barbara Streisand...and a varied assortment of Hollywood bigshots whose lifestyles are utterly unreal, and whose pronouncements are either dangerously naive or bordering on treason. Either way, they are manifestations of a jaw-dropping vanity.
- various shades of 'conservatives', the most prominent of whom are the so-called neo-conservatives, a rather strange mixture of intellectual hawks (with a rather alarming absence of military service between them) and reformed 60s Marxists, who seem to like the idea of 'empire' but who have little real understanding of the term, and who instinctively shy away from it anyway as Americans. Their conservatism is not conservatism as it is understood in Britain or Europe, as the added ingredients of American Christianity and the frontier mentality must be taken into account. As evidenced by the video, there would appear to be a considerable degree of what I will term 'locker room jock conservatism' - a sort of 'hoo ha, kill 'em all' thinking, which should be kept in the frat house where it belongs.
Neither group displays any particular grasp of the outside world.
To simple also. There is an increasingly large group that didn't think an awful lot about the implications of what the admiistration wants to achieve. When you are trying to sell the policy, not a lot of time is going to be spent going over the likely consequences. The fact is that most Americans (like people everywhere) are busy enough thinking about how to just along with their lives. When they are presented with what essentially looks like an easy choice, they'll go with it and then get back to thinking about how to make next month's mortgage and health insurance payments. It's known in the trade as rational ignorance. Not a bad thing per se, but more an inevitable phenomenon of psychology.
However, these same people are starting to take more notice of goings on and are increasing starting to think that the US is on the wrong track. As we have seen in the last couple of weeks, the hawks are once again questioning people's back-bone and patriotism and arguing that performing u-turns. I disagree, what we are seeing now is the result of people having to stop and think about what is going on and for the first time drawing their own conclusions about the current 'strategy' being the best course of action.
Rep. John Murtha, the Democrat Hawk who changed his stance on the war last week, may have had an epiphany and changed his mind, but the data indicates that (and this is really what has the Bush Administration worried) that the blue-collar, fairly conservative types who make up his constituency (Central Pennsylvania- think of the Di Nero film, The Deerhunter) are changing their minds about the wosdom of the current policy.
Yes, I was being simple - though I believe what I said was accurate. However, I do agree with your assertions...
...to the extent that they are pretty much equally applicable to both 'sides' in the United States right now. (was in a hurry earlier, and didn't check to see that part posted )
If this is true, then how can these same "enlightened people," who pass themselves off as forward thinking, progressive, etc even BEGIN to tell others what to do? Or shape policy? How can they even begin to say what is right, what is wrong, etc if they have no clue of what is really going on? These same people, in your country and in mine, make my job, the military's job, etc harder, because of what they THINK things should be; not what they are.
Reality is a difficult concept for these liberals to understand, grasp, embrace, and moreover, admit too. I would rather have someone who knows the facts, ALL OF THE FACTS, shape my future. Not someone who dreams about peace, love, and understanding everynight, not knowing what the real truth is.
What we see is complexity, a world that is not black and white and we recognise that we do not have the monopoly on what is right or wrong. If anyone as an over-abundance of hubris it's the current bunch of mongs running the United States at the moment. I could launch into a 50 page discourse about epistemology and ontology and the intersubjectivity of fact and truth, but I fear it would simply be beyond your comprehension.
I will say this, however. If everyone accepted politcal realism as the natural order of affairs, your country, Phil, would not have come into existence in the first place. If human society is ever to progress, it needs people who are prepared to challenge orthodoxies and try to imagine what the world might be like. If you can't accept that, then you'd better find a cave to live in.
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