General Franco's grave: when 'righting past wrongs' backfires

In terms of counterfactual history, Franco's decision not to join the Axis was hugely beneficial to the UK, despite his Fascism being a bad thing. Had we lost Gib - no reason why it would definitely have held out if supplies had to negotiate a Franco-Spanish seaboard in Axis hands, with the Germans having access to (new) U-boat and aircraft bases. Say in late mid '41 we lose access to the Med via the straits? What then? If nowt else a major additional strain on resources, with supplies to the Med limited to the Cape route.
I think Franco's decision not to join the Axis was impressive good sense, particularly as it was made at a time when our eventual victory was by no means likely. In retrospect it is a more obvious decision than it must have been at the time.
 
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Was it Democratically mandated when they were rounding up Clergy and executing them

Both sides were up to no good before actual war broke out, the left was certainly not shy about murdering rivals, clergy and anyone who opposed them. Seems standing up to Murderers Killing everyone you know and trashing everything you grew up with isn't treason but a human trait
I know some of them are/were decent enough but in general I think it would be a good idea.
 
I think Franco's decision not to join the Axis was impressive good sense, particularly as it was made at a time when our eventual victory was by no means likely.
Not really IMO - more that the country was in ruins post civil war and was in no position to risk taking sides (or indeed - it was fairly clear nevertheless whose side he was on...
 
Not really IMO - more that the country was in ruins post civil war and was in no position to risk taking sides (or indeed - it was fairly clear nevertheless whose side he was on...
But (I have read) it was sold to Franco in terms of 'We - Germany - will take Gib, etc'. He would not have been the first leader to be late backing what was assumed to be a winning horse.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
there was no revolution (unlike Portugal).
Interesting the Portugese revolution, not really for here but the Army threw out the politicians to ensure they could withdraw from empire!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
If the commies has won, Spain would be somewhere behind Albania in terms of development.
Some would claim with veracity that it isn't far from it now.
 
Some would claim with veracity that it isn't far from it now.
I disagree. In terms of infrastructure it has some of the most modern in Europe. It’s high speed railways put the UK’s to shame. When I was working in the Middle East, the EPC market was flooded by Spanish companies (building refineries etc). Not a British outfit to be seen (except perhaps the notionally Chanel Islands registered but Syrian owned Petrofac). The majority shareholder in Heathow is a Spanish infrastructure company. The prime contractor in Cross Rail is a Spanish led consortium. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish power company. I hope you get my point that Spain is way ahead of Albania.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I disagree. In terms of infrastructure it has some of the most modern in Europe. It’s high speed railways put the UK’s to shame. When I was working in the Middle East, the EPC market was flooded by Spanish companies (building refineries etc). Not a British outfit to be seen (except perhaps the notionally Chanel Islands registered but Syrian owned Petrofac). The majority shareholder in Heathow is a Spanish infrastructure company. The prime contractor in Cross Rail is a Spanish led consortium. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish power company. I hope you get my point that Spain is way ahead of Albania.
Yet the place is a tip, airports built that no one uses and masses of empty housing developments. Sure its had money thrown at it but so did Albania!
 
Yet the place is a tip, airports built that no one uses and masses of empty housing developments. Sure its had money thrown at it but so did Albania!
Housing surplus is probably better than a house shortage but let’s not get off thread here.
 
I disagree. In terms of infrastructure it has some of the most modern in Europe. It’s high speed railways put the UK’s to shame. When I was working in the Middle East, the EPC market was flooded by Spanish companies (building refineries etc). Not a British outfit to be seen (except perhaps the notionally Chanel Islands registered but Syrian owned Petrofac). The majority shareholder in Heathow is a Spanish infrastructure company. The prime contractor in Cross Rail is a Spanish led consortium. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish power company. I hope you get my point that Spain is way ahead of Albania.
And why?

Because the children of the revolution were the technocrats who worked the "economic miracle" of the 1960s planned economy. Few countries have ever bettered the growth of the Spanish economy from the mid 1950s to about 1970. Genuinely, they worked wonders.*

And it was their children (privileged enough to go to university) who agitated to bring the dictatorship to an end in the 1970s.

*I'm not a Spanish Franquist fan boy btw, this is cold hard "taught to be by a left wing university lecturer" fact - the Spanish govt got the late 1950s and 1960s *very* impressively right economically.

Why? Largely because Franco didn't meddle, stayed out of the way, and let them get on with it.
 
And why?

Because the children of the revolution were the technocrats who worked the "economic miracle" of the 1960s planned economy. Few countries have ever bettered the growth of the Spanish economy from the mid 1950s to about 1970. Genuinely, they worked wonders.*

And it was their children (privileged enough to go to university) who agitated to bring the dictatorship to an end in the 1970s.

*I'm not a Spanish Franquist fan boy btw, this is cold hard "taught to be by a left wing university lecturer" fact - the Spanish govt got the late 1950s and 1960s *very* impressively right economically.

Why? Largely because Franco didn't meddle, stayed out of the way, and let them get on with it.
Totally agree. And those massive family companies like Ferrovial, Acciona, ACS, Iberdrola are now cleaning up all over the world and the rest of Europe has nothing to compete with them. Incidentally, a lot of this growth was initiated by members of Opus Dei who are generally extremely well educated and were brought into government by Franco as technocrats to kick start modernization.
 
The UK has seen similar calls for symbols of the past to be moved, hidden or removed. The ongoing debate about whether a statue of Cecil Rhodes should be removed from an Oxford University is a good example of the strength of feeling such subjects can cause.
Btw, is the statue of the Lord Protector regarded in the UK as controversial? He has much in common with Franko.
My main reaction to attempts to 'right past wrongs' is that there are more important things to do now. The past has happened. Exhuming Franco may make those on the Spanish Left feel they have denied him a final form of victory but Franco did win.
Couldn't agree more. It is better to allow the next generations - 200-300 years later to decide.
Current Russian minister of culture mr.Medinsky was previously a fierce proponent of removal of Lenin's body from Mausoleum on the Red Square in Moscow. But apparently he abandoned the idea and don't mention it last years.
Btw, maybe I contributed to it a bit. We with mr.Medinsky disputed the issue on liberal radio Echo of Moscow in the program "People against". I was among 7 representatives of 'the people' invited in the studio.
 
Btw, is the statue of the Lord Protector regarded in the UK as controversial? He has much in common with Franko.

Couldn't agree more. It is better to allow the next generations - 200-300 years later to decide.
Current Russian minister of culture mr.Medinsky was previously a fierce proponent of removal of Lenin's body from Mausoleum on the Red Square in Moscow. But apparently he abandoned the idea and don't mention it last years.
Btw, maybe I contributed to it a bit. We with mr.Medinsky disputed the issue on liberal radio Echo of Moscow in the program "People against". I was among 7 representatives of 'the people' invited in the studio.
I am not aware of anyone objecting to Cromwell's statue.* The Irish might as he was an efficient enemy of Catholicism in that country, if you know what I mean. Cromwell is recognised as being a necessary but temporary step in the reduction of the power of the monarchy. Cromwell apparently considered becoming king but was not supported by his peers, iirc.

Were you in favour of Lenin remaining in his mausoleum?

*It may have happened however.
 
I am not aware of anyone objecting to Cromwell's statue.* The Irish might as he was an efficient enemy of Catholicism in that country, if you know what I mean. Cromwell is recognised as being a necessary but temporary step in the reduction of the power of the monarchy. Cromwell apparently considered becoming king but was not supported by his peers, iirc.

Were you in favour of Lenin remaining in his mausoleum?

*It may have happened however.
Yes, in my opinion, the right place of Lenin is in its Mausoleum on the Red square. The Mausoleum is recognised by UNESCO as one of the World Heritage sites. And Lenin's Mausoleum without Lenin's body would be strange. I believe that we should preserve historical artefacts for future generations, should keep them 'as is'.
As for Franko then he was de facto a leader of Spain for a long period. Yes, he captured power using means that are too far from democracy. But he had significant support anyway. Many fought in his forces and died. Btw, still monument devoted to Francist soldiers exists in Tortosa (Catalonia) where I had been the last year.
Generally speaking it is up to the people of Spain to decide.
 
Btw, is the statue of the Lord Protector regarded in the UK as controversial?
Quite a few Scots cite it as an example that the UK was never a partnership.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
But (I have read) it was sold to Franco in terms of 'We - Germany - will take Gib, etc'. He would not have been the first leader to be late backing what was assumed to be a winning horse.
I watched an interesting and quite convincing program some years ago which suggested that Franco was keen to get in on the act but that Hitler thought that he and Spain would prove more of a hinderance than a help. There was archive evidence aplenty to demonstrate Hitler's thinking and it was after the event opportunism that Franco grabbed hold of to suggest he had played a wily card game to keep Spain out of the clutches of the Third Reich.

And when you consider the other Axis leaders that Hitler had to rely on and manage you can see why he might think there were already enough idiots on the team without adding one more. Mussolini in particular must go down as one of the most pompous and ludicrous arses in the history of the world.
 

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