General Franco's grave: when 'righting past wrongs' backfires

#81
That would seem to be an oversimplification. Both sides were seeking to subvert the democratic process. It was just that the Republicans were in power and doing it.

Wordsmith
Iirc Franco was against a coup for some time. Got tipped over the edge by one too many saudi style interview without head by the Republican stasi for a prominent Royalist.
 
#83
Still good to know spain is still a week behind Arrse. Gib still safe from you lazy dagos and all ;)
Not really it was the sunday edition with other comments and related political points I ommitted as being local.
But I reckon Gib is still safe for the mo.

BTW I may be surrounded by lazy dagoes but I aren't one. I'm a lazy Geordie just as a point of order.

Ed. Spelling.
 
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#84
Iirc Franco was against a coup for some time. Got tipped over the edge by one too many saudi style interview without head by the Republican stasi for a prominent Royalist.
Franco was very cautious and that is possibly why he was a bit leery about committing. His generalship also was nothing special and fairly conservative.
But he was firmly anti-Republic in outlook. Be interested in your sources for that.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#85
A continuation of the renaming of roads and squares which refer to him and his cohorts. The law of "historical memory" (ratified in 2015) also calls for the removal of statues.
Calle General Romero Basart in Madrid has been renamed Calle Blas Cabrera, replacing one of Franco's generals with a physicist.
Plaza Generalissimos have been renamed for several years and even one avenue named after the "fallen of the Blue Brigade" has been renamed after Picasso.

Yes, there were concentration camps (these foreigners did learn something from the Brits) with the first one on Ceuta and, interestingly, the whole system was said to be masterminded by the German head of the Gestapo in Spain.
I hope you're not perpetuating the nonsense that the Brits invented concentration camps.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#86
For those who favour the Spanish threat stopping the Germans having a go at Russia then think again.
Having an open flank with the Brits didn't stop Adolf going towards Moscow. Why would a Republican Spanish Army that was not equipped for armoured warfare and tired after a Civil war be a major threat? A division or two could have kept them at bay given that the access routes through the Pyrenees are relatively easily defended. The Vichy forces could have kept them at bay.

The only way it would have made a difference would have been if the UK allied with a pro-soviet government and provided a foothold on the continent, though one distant from the main objectives. We only got into the continent when the US was on board so that would have been a prerequisite.
Gib would have had a bit more freedom and Italy menaced but without the yanks we couldn't have stopped Barbarossa. The truth is that the Germans lost the war in Russia everything else was just adjusting the results.
No they didn't. They lost the war in 1940 when continued British resistance ensured the perpetual German strategic nightmare of war on two fronts and an easy access route for the USA.

If Germany had been free to hit Russia with everything it had and to blow the whistle at the start of summer instead of halfway through it, Russia would have been toast. Even had Russia survived 1941, there would have been no western aid.

The Russians always bang on about what they did to the Wehrmacht, but we did most of the heavy lifting regarding the Luftwaffe and the Kreigsmarine, not to mention the resources we tied up in home defence - that's a hell of a lot of 88s for a start.
 
#88
Franco was very cautious and that is possibly why he was a bit leery about committing. His generalship also was nothing special and fairly conservative.
But he was firmly anti-Republic in outlook. Be interested in your sources for that.
Can't honesty remember, something my old man told me (him being a historian and while specalising in 18th c naval took an interest in matters iberian)
 
#89
No they didn't. They lost the war in 1940 when continued British resistance ensured the perpetual German strategic nightmare of war on two fronts and an easy access route for the USA.

If Germany had been free to hit Russia with everything it had and to blow the whistle at the start of summer instead of halfway through it, Russia would have been toast. Even had Russia survived 1941, there would have been no western aid.

The Russians always bang on about what they did to the Wehrmacht, but we did most of the heavy lifting regarding the Luftwaffe and the Kreigsmarine, not to mention the resources we tied up in home defence - that's a hell of a lot of 88s for a start.
If I answer that it will be a major thread divert. So rather than do so here I will open another thread a bit later and pm you when I do.
Let's just say I think the point has a lot of mileage and I don't agree 100%.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#90
Welcome aboard Trig. Glad to see the bandwagon still has some room even though it has trundled on.
Don't be grumpy with me - it's not my fault if you think that the Duke of Rubi is some sort of curryhouse and decide to flaunt your ignorance with a misguided cheap shot.
 
#91
The Spanish civil war was characterised by wholesale slaughter of civilians on both sides. We don't know how the Communists would have ruled as they lost but I doubt a Comrade Juan would have been much more fun to live under than Franco. Trying to whitewash history to either pretend the Nationalists didn't win or that one side were 'the goodies' seems a bit of a pointless priority to me.

Still it's not like Spain is in an economic and employment crisis and there's anything better to focus on.
If the Falangists had left the democratically elected government alone the communists would probably not have got involved in the first place though.
 
#92
If the Falangists had left the democratically elected government alone the communists would probably not have got involved in the first place though.
The Communists were part of the democratically elected government. It was they who decided to start emptying the jails and murdering their political opponents. Like I said, there was no 'good' side.
 
#93
Franco was very cautious and that is possibly why he was a bit leery about committing. His generalship also was nothing special and fairly conservative.
But he was firmly anti-Republic in outlook. Be interested in your sources for that.
IIRC either Paul Preston or Raymond Carr... I did 2 years of 20th century Spanish history at university, having never really thought about it before, and got very into it.

There's also slightly too much truth for comfort (ie about 10%) in the Nationalists' own line that the coup was pre-emptive to head off a Soviet backed communist coup.

Of course, they were mainly in it for the money and to preserve their privileges, but there was (as they saw it) a genuine threat too. As was subsequently proved when the USSR spent most of the civil war undermining the Republican government and attempting to pick its own winners (together with - obviously - shutting down other leftists that weren't the right sort of left, eg liquidation of the POUM, etc).

The right did much the same sort of thing, of course, emasculating the Falange over time and subsuming everything into the Movimiento, which might best be described as authoritarian corporatist rather than fascist - or indeed, as Franco himself said, "National Catholic."

What many (outside Spain) seem to miss IMO is that there was no break with the past, or the regime, when Franco died, which is why there is a bloody great mausoleum still and people are even now renaming streets. The regime didn't collapse over night, there was no revolution (unlike Portugal). Franco died and was replaced by his designated successor, Juan Carlos. Initially not a lot changed, the technocrats still ruled the Cortes, and slowly they groped towards democracy enabled by a pact of forgetfulness - essentially a law that said "we're going to move forward by banning anyone from talking about the past."

Which, funnily enough, is why most 20th century Spanish history is written by British historians.

As late as 1981 you've got the Spanish army storming parliament and trying to have a counter-coup against democracy, which was only seen off when the King went on national tv and told them to get back in their box. Ironically, their reverence for Juan Carlos as the designated successor to the caudillo was what carried the day and preserved democracy. Spain never had a revolution, the state of today is the successor to the state of then in a way that just isn't true for say Germany or Italy.
 
#94
If the Falangists had left the democratically elected government alone the communists would probably not have got involved in the first place though.
see my previous, you can't talk about the falangists like that - they were incidental to what was a Royalist/nationalist rebellion lead by the army. The conservatives responded to some of the actions of the Republican government (I'm not endorsing it but they genuinely believe - most of them - that they weren't starting it).

The Falangists were only ever along for the ride, which is why they were much more controlled and emasculated by the regime in a way that eg the Nazi Party never was. Post Civil War, they were a glorified trade union to guarantee getting a job, not a lot more. Many of the leading ones were encouraged to join the Blue Division in the hope that they wouldn't be coming back. Which was what happened largely.

Bottom line, the regime/movimiento was never really fascist or that interested in fascism. It *was* conservative, authoritarian, catholic, anti-masonic, anti-communist. The fascists were useful footsoldiers while there was a civil war to fight, and then quietly marginalised.
 
#95
Just received an interesting video via wassapp that I think is quite relevant here when talking about how Franco affected Spain. A couple of people have said that it was a long time ago and long passed, and that is not so. Agreed that the younger generation have not lived under a dictatorship but they live in a society marked by his system.

Many families still have memories of a parent or grandparent who suffered as a result of the war and subsequent dictatorship. Personally my grandfather and father were forced to flee Catalonia because of the fascists. My dad was a boy and grew up British, as did I and we have a Catalan surname but links to Catalonia which led me here. But my story is simply not exceptional everyone has a similar story or knows someone who has.

The lady in the video is talking about discovering her paternal grandfather. Of her two granfathers one was a franquista and a colonel who cooperated with the Gestapo. The second was a trade-unionist shot in 1936.
The first was a prominent member of the family and held up as an example, the second was never talked about because of the problems that might bring. After digging into family history the lady came up with the following observations:
That the franquista was rewarded for following the dark path, the one of domination, and that was held up as a good thing. The trade-unionist who worked to benefit others and for a fairer society was shot and his memory hidden because that was a bad thing.
She says that it is in the Spanish DNA to reward the wrong thing and punish the right. Until then we will never have true democracy in Spain.

Franco maintained that lie as orthodoxy and also allowed corruption as an endemic part of the fabric of society so that the corrupt interests would wish to keep the system as it is.

The results still affect society today with the extreme right gaining ground again. The judicial system which has a political element. Politicians with their hands in the till, the attitude being that everyone does it so you are afool if you don't.
The previous Prime Minister took under the counter cash from his party which came from illegal payments yet simply went on tv to say it was a lie and for him that was the end of the story.

Franco may be dead but his legacy still has a long way to go before it is eradicated, if it ever can be.
.
 
#96
I have a great book on this - 'Ghosts of Spain' by Giles Tremlett, all about the above subjects, subtitled 'travels through a country's hidden past. Very interesting.
 
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#97
It does seem a bit strange, to say the least, for a democracy to have a dictator's corpse entombed in the manner of a national hero. Even for robber-baron Russia it's strange to still have Lenin's body in a special mausoleum. The Chinese at least still pretend that Mao (who's entombed in a similarly grandiose mausoleum) is a guiding light rather than someone responsible for the deaths of millions of his own people.

Ah, put 'em all on a catapult & fling 'em into a volcano.
These Spanish lefties forget that till Franco pitched up , the Spanish were living in a medieval backwater run by landed families and the Church .
A communist take over would simply have made things even worse .
Shooting a few priests is all very well , but it doesn't put bread on the table .
By the time he died , Spain was ready to take it's place as a modern European nation , but it wasn't an easy ride getting there
 
#98
The Communists were part of the democratically elected government. It was they who decided to start emptying the jails and murdering their political opponents. Like I said, there was no 'good' side.
Was that not after Government troops hunting for FAI/CNT types had massacred 25 people near Cadiz? Bringing down Azana's Governemnt in the aftermath and leading to the Ceda gaining power and eventually to their downfall and the PF government being elected. Yes there was no good side, but the right seemed to have pushed for it from the very start, Franco was in no way unprepared for the action he took.
 
#99
Just received an interesting video via wassapp that I think is quite relevant here when talking about how Franco affected Spain. A couple of people have said that it was a long time ago and long passed, and that is not so. Agreed that the younger generation have not lived under a dictatorship but they live in a society marked by his system.

Many families still have memories of a parent or grandparent who suffered as a result of the war and subsequent dictatorship. Personally my grandfather and father were forced to flee Catalonia because of the fascists. My dad was a boy and grew up British, as did I and we have a Catalan surname but links to Catalonia which led me here. But my story is simply not exceptional everyone has a similar story or knows someone who has.

The lady in the video is talking about discovering her paternal grandfather. Of her two granfathers one was a franquista and a colonel who cooperated with the Gestapo. The second was a trade-unionist shot in 1936.
The first was a prominent member of the family and held up as an example, the second was never talked about because of the problems that might bring. After digging into family history the lady came up with the following observations:
That the franquista was rewarded for following the dark path, the one of domination, and that was held up as a good thing. The trade-unionist who worked to benefit others and for a fairer society was shot and his memory hidden because that was a bad thing.
She says that it is in the Spanish DNA to reward the wrong thing and punish the right. Until then we will never have true democracy in Spain.

Franco maintained that lie as orthodoxy and also allowed corruption as an endemic part of the fabric of society so that the corrupt interests would wish to keep the system as it is.

The results still affect society today with the extreme right gaining ground again. The judicial system which has a political element. Politicians with their hands in the till, the attitude being that everyone does it so you are afool if you don't.
The previous Prime Minister took under the counter cash from his party which came from illegal payments yet simply went on tv to say it was a lie and for him that was the end of the story.

Franco may be dead but his legacy still has a long way to go before it is eradicated, if it ever can be.
.
I've met old boys in Catalunya who hid in the mountains , fed by their families , for years .
 
These Spanish lefties forget that till Franco pitched up , the Spanish were living in a medieval backwater run by landed families and the Church .
A communist take over would simply have made things even worse .
Shooting a few priests is all very well , but it doesn't put bread on the table .
By the time he died , Spain was ready to take it's place as a modern European nation , but it wasn't an easy ride getting there
If the commies has won, Spain would be somewhere behind Albania in terms of development.
 

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