General Franco's grave: when 'righting past wrongs' backfires

#61
There is a lot of uniformed posting on here, Franco's grave is not merely a left-wing rewriting of history, it is in fact a very current living symbol. ExBleep has mentioned that there is an ongoing removal of Franco's symbols throughout Spain, greater in some areas than others. Streets are being renamed, sculptures removed, and symbols taken down.

Franco has left a very deep impact in essentially two ways, and in many ways the divisions created by the civil war still exist.

An American Lady of my acquaintance who lived in Spain for some time, lived in other countries and returned to live in Catalonia said, and I agree, that she is constantly surprised by the depth of fascism underlying in Spain.

One has to realise that Franco was not in anyway an aberration, he was a continuity. Spain has historically been ruled by the pillars of monarchy, Church, Army, and monied interests. When the Republic was born that was the anomaly which Franco and his fellow conspirators decided to abolish so that normality could be resumed.

The present democracy is not the democracy that exists in the UK, and has many failings. Spain has made a lot of progress in Social aspects and in several directions but not very far politically.

The current problems with Catalonia, where I live, has shown the tendency of the state to revert to authoritarianism, as shown by the reaction to the attempted referendum on independence.
It has also provoked a reaction in which many in Spain are looking to the ultra right, just as in Germany, France and other states.
VOX an ultra-right party managed a meeting with 10,000 attendance recently. The Falange is tolerated still and legalised while the right wing parties of PP and Cs, competing for the right wing vote are going more extreme and proposing illegalising parties they disagree with.

The Valley of the Fallen has been a symbol of oppression for a long time, it's time it was a symbol of the fallen on both sides.
 
#62
Except for the fact he didn't lead the coup (the bloke who did got killed in a plane crash early doors) it's a valid point. And utterly irrelevant to the post I was responding to which deals with the fact there was a civil war and that being the case the possible impact of a Communist victory on the outcome of WW2.

Which isn't whataboutery, its discussing potential alternative ways history could have played out.
There was no initial leader of the coup, there was a junta of which Franco was a key member. Without him the coup would not have gone forward despite others having a form of seniority.
Franco worked behind the scenes to achieve primacy during the war, and I would not be surprised if the air-crash was a little more than fortuitous.
 
#63
Fashionable myth that the British were the first to use internment in camps in this manner. That's where the term originated, but not the principle - the US used them back to the 1830's.
Indeed. The camps the Cherokee people were herded into when the US (and Georgia) wanted their ancestral lands in the 1830s were concentration camps. The Spaniards used concentration camps on the island of Cuba as well in the 19th Century when Cuba was still a Spanish colony.
 
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#65
I had an Uncle fought in the Spanish Civil War. On the Republican side. I got the impression He thought both sides were ladys front bottoms. He was anti fascist all His life. But was very disillusioned by the 'left'. Served WW2 in the MN.
Should you read Beevor's "The Battle For Spain" you will find ample evidence for your uncle's beliefs. The incompetence on both sides was staggering; not helped on the republican side by the communist faction (with one eye always on what was happening in Russia) determinedly undermining any other faction; and gross ineptitude on the part of the royalist army with the exception of the African units with Franco pulling strings to undermine his fellow generals. The quotes from Richthofen's (CO Condor Legion) diaries are particularly illuminating regarding his frustration with the royalists abilities.

What can also be gained from reading the book is why the war has left such a divide in Spanish society. It was vicious in a way that would become all too common on the eastern front a few years later but in a more bitter manner that is the trait of civil wars.

"An American Lady of my acquaintance who lived in Spain for some time, lived in other countries and returned to live in Catalonia said, and I agree, that she is constantly surprised by the depth of fascism underlying in Spain." - That probably applies to Europe as a whole, with some limited exceptions.
 
#66
The Americans seem to think differently. General Lee, the Southern General that fought to continue slavery among other reasons. He has a Museum built in his former home to honour his name. It is about a mile over the Potomac river, next to Arlington military Cemetery. A big sign at his former mansion states ' Quiet, Please Show respect: No Gum Chewing!
In the meantime in Bristol and London certain monuments are being pointed at for destruction, we are getting just too bloody soft!
Lee's Home WAS Arlington, His home was confiscated and Union dead buried in the garden on the front lawn.

Ironically Lee did not believe in monuments to the south and refused to attend unveilings .
“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”


Lee advocated protection of just one form of memorial: headstones in cemeteries.

“All I think that can now be done,” he wrote in 1866, “is … to protect the graves mark the last resting places of those who have fallen…”
 
#67
No it isn't. There would have been no civil war had Franco not rejected a democratically mandated government. It's a deflection argument and a prime example of strawman whataboutery.
Was it Democratically mandated when they were rounding up Clergy and executing them

Both sides were up to no good before actual war broke out, the left was certainly not shy about murdering rivals, clergy and anyone who opposed them. Seems standing up to Murderers Killing everyone you know and trashing everything you grew up with isn't treason but a human trait
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#69
A small aside to the main subject.

While this thread is in CA it also has a solid historical background.
As such counterfactual historical discussion has a correct place while kneejerk modern political posturing has not.

Nor would I venture to suggest, does puerile foot-stamping and abuse of position.

Sixty, you either misread or misunderstood #024 and responded by quoting another poster and coming to solidly incorrect conclusions.
That would be understand coming from someone new to the site or Bugsy, but you've been here a while.

Your error was pointed out in a light hearted manner yet you chose to respond with ire, another move most often seen in NIGs.
When the reply was still upbeat you again came back with anger and incite a return.

In short you were losing your case and reacted childishly by blocking the poster from the thread. I bet the young girls at Uni thought you were really mature.

From your, frankly unbelievable, responses to anything less than adulation here, plus your misuse of moderating power, do you not think it's time for another of your "pauses" - or are you going to attempt humour by blocking this log-in and/or deleting the post ?

In all seriousness, you were out of order.
 
#70
There is a lot of uniformed posting on here, Franco's grave is not merely a left-wing rewriting of history, it is in fact a very current living symbol. ExBleep has mentioned that there is an ongoing removal of Franco's symbols throughout Spain, greater in some areas than others. Streets are being renamed, sculptures removed, and symbols taken down.

Franco has left a very deep impact in essentially two ways, and in many ways the divisions created by the civil war still exist.

An American Lady of my acquaintance who lived in Spain for some time, lived in other countries and returned to live in Catalonia said, and I agree, that she is constantly surprised by the depth of fascism underlying in Spain.

One has to realise that Franco was not in anyway an aberration, he was a continuity. Spain has historically been ruled by the pillars of monarchy, Church, Army, and monied interests. When the Republic was born that was the anomaly which Franco and his fellow conspirators decided to abolish so that normality could be resumed.

The present democracy is not the democracy that exists in the UK, and has many failings. Spain has made a lot of progress in Social aspects and in several directions but not very far politically.

The current problems with Catalonia, where I live, has shown the tendency of the state to revert to authoritarianism, as shown by the reaction to the attempted referendum on independence.
It has also provoked a reaction in which many in Spain are looking to the ultra right, just as in Germany, France and other states.
VOX an ultra-right party managed a meeting with 10,000 attendance recently. The Falange is tolerated still and legalised while the right wing parties of PP and Cs, competing for the right wing vote are going more extreme and proposing illegalising parties they disagree with.

The Valley of the Fallen has been a symbol of oppression for a long time, it's time it was a symbol of the fallen on both sides.
Indeed. I had a look at the map of Spain the other day (following friends walking the St James route to Santiago) and see that Franco's birthplace is now just Ferrol, instead of El Ferrol del Caudillo. I spent the summer of 1976 in El Ferrol working a family related to Franco. They didn't approve of my reading material: Homage to Catalonia and a biography of Rosa Luxembourg. I was taken to see the King and Queen who visited El Ferrol, thousands turned out. It was the first time I was aware of both privilege and poverty with nothing much in between, having been brought up in an ordinary middle class Scottish home. The omnipresence of the military was also a bit of an eye opener.
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#71
A small aside to the main subject.

While this thread is in CA it also has a solid historical background.
As such counterfactual historical discussion has a correct place while kneejerk modern political posturing has not.

Nor would I venture to suggest, does puerile foot-stamping and abuse of position.

Sixty, you either misread or misunderstood #024 and responded by quoting another poster and coming to solidly incorrect conclusions.
That would be understand coming from someone new to the site or Bugsy, but you've been here a while.

Your error was pointed out in a light hearted manner yet you chose to respond with ire, another move most often seen in NIGs.
When the reply was still upbeat you again came back with anger and incite a return.

In short you were losing your case and reacted childishly by blocking the poster from the thread. I bet the young girls at Uni thought you were really mature.

From your, frankly unbelievable, responses to anything less than adulation here, plus your misuse of moderating power, do you not think it's time for another of your "pauses" - or are you going to attempt humour by blocking this log-in and/or deleting the post ?

In all seriousness, you were out of order.
Well you clearly see some significance to the thread of the progress of my doctoral thesis: I don't see it myself nor do I see what his personal question added.

However, the majority of your post is fair comment so I'll remove the thread-ban.
 
#72
While in Spain in the nineties I made the mistake of asking what things were like under Franco and how had it improved since his demise. A decided chill descended on the conversation and all eyes turned my direction. Uncomfortable doesn't even start to describe it. I quickly mumbled something irrelevant about the next day's program and things went back to normal. Clearly any discussion of the past was off limits. Very much a Fawlty Towers "I mentioned the war once, but I think I got away with it" moment.
 
#73
While in Spain in the nineties I made the mistake of asking what things were like under Franco and how had it improved since his demise. A decided chill descended on the conversation and all eyes turned my direction. Uncomfortable doesn't even start to describe it. I quickly mumbled something irrelevant about the next day's program and things went back to normal. Clearly any discussion of the past was off limits. Very much a Fawlty Towers "I mentioned the war once, but I think I got away with it" moment.
My folks were on holiday in Madrid when he cuffed it. As my old man put it 'it placed a very significant strain on global eggshell supply to tread on.' Everyone trying to look devastated while clearly at least half wanted to get the bunting out made for a fun filled holiday of ordering paella while trying to look suitably downcast and resist the urge to crack funnys.
 
#74
Well, well, irony raises its head. Both government and Church have been wrong-footed.
Everyone thought Franco's family would have him re-interred in Galicia next to his wife. Turns out the family had a crypt that neither Government nor Church knew they had and it just happens to be in the Almudena Cathedral in Madrid.
So the Government thought they would eliminate a symbol of fascist dictatorship and would relegate the homages to the dictator to an out of the way corner. The Church thought they would manage to lose the overtly fascist connection and have the Valley of the Fallen as a symbol of progression at the same time as maintaining their contacts with the Right by saying that they were just obeying the Government thus deflecting the blame.
So now the Falange and crew will have their homages right in one of the tourist spots in Madrid.
Both Government and Church are looking at each other and saying «You have a problem» and the other is saying «Who me?»

So the family is managing to damage control the situation from the point of view of the Right. But unfortunately it keeps Franco in the forefront of things and very possibly a symbol that keeps political confrontation heated up.

So more irony in that Franco is still in the picture thanks to his family.
 
#75
Well, well, irony raises its head. Both government and Church have been wrong-footed.
Everyone thought Franco's family would have him re-interred in Galicia next to his wife. Turns out the family had a crypt that neither Government nor Church knew they had and it just happens to be in the Almudena Cathedral in Madrid.
So the Government thought they would eliminate a symbol of fascist dictatorship and would relegate the homages to the dictator to an out of the way corner. The Church thought they would manage to lose the overtly fascist connection and have the Valley of the Fallen as a symbol of progression at the same time as maintaining their contacts with the Right by saying that they were just obeying the Government thus deflecting the blame.
So now the Falange and crew will have their homages right in one of the tourist spots in Madrid.
Both Government and Church are looking at each other and saying «You have a problem» and the other is saying «Who me?»

So the family is managing to damage control the situation from the point of view of the Right. But unfortunately it keeps Franco in the forefront of things and very possibly a symbol that keeps political confrontation heated up.

So more irony in that Franco is still in the picture thanks to his family.
Err thats kinda why we have the thread? Read the OP.
 
#76
Err thats kinda why we have the thread? Read the OP.
Major red face here. Had forgotten OP mentioned the cathedral. Read the article in my sunday paper and posted without checking.
Will beast myself around the lake three times carrying a tree trunk.
 
#77
Major red face here. Had forgotten OP mentioned the cathedral. Read the article in my sunday paper and posted without checking.
Will beast myself around the lake three times carrying a tree trunk.
In fairness, you described the situation better than I did :)
The situation is a very good example of the unintended and unpredictable consequences of something that must have seemed quite straightforward.
 
#78
Major red face here. Had forgotten OP mentioned the cathedral. Read the article in my sunday paper and posted without checking.
Will beast myself around the lake three times carrying a tree trunk.
Still good to know spain is still a week behind Arrse. Gib still safe from you lazy dagos and all ;)
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#79
No it isn't. There would have been no civil war had Franco not rejected a democratically mandated government. It's a deflection argument and a prime example of strawman whataboutery.
That would seem to be an oversimplification. Both sides were seeking to subvert the democratic process. It was just that the Republicans were in power and doing it.

Wordsmith
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#80

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