General Franco's grave: when 'righting past wrongs' backfires

#42
Not you. The post you were replying to which sought to make Franco out as the lesser of two evils had the outcome gone the other way but which roundly ignored that there would have been no war had the fascist not decided to jump in.
He's answered the point above and as pointed out he wasn't ignoring anything. Just looking at possible alternative outcomes to a war that was happening.
 

Sixty

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#43
Except the start point for the counterfactual is that the civil war had started, but Franco lost. Not an earlier point.

Or otherwise we can go even further back: what if the Swiss hadn't allowed Lenin to get on that sealed train through Germany in 1917?

The point with any counterfactual is that it takes events as-happened up to a certain point, then asks what if it had turned out differently.
So Franco was bad but it would have been worse had certain outcomes occurred that didn't then? Justifying those things that did happen with a veneer of respectability.

It does smack somewhat of excusing his actions in hindsight at best and as an apologia at worst.
 
#44
Not you. The post you were replying to which sought to make Franco out as the lesser of two evils had the outcome gone the other way but which roundly ignored that there would have been no war had the fascist not decided to jump in.
And if Franco or Hitler or Marx or Lenin or any number of other scumbags had been strangled at birth we wouldn't be having this discussion either. Which is why we start counterfactuals at an arbitrary point of interest and look at the likely way that scenario would have played out, otherwise we go down the infinite-counterfactual rabbit hole of doom, getting ever further and further back as to whether Ugg shouldn't have hit Gugg on the head and stolen his cave in 25,064 BC ;)
 
#45
So Franco was bad but it would have been worse had certain outcomes occurred that didn't then? Justifying those things that did happen with a veneer of respectability.

It does smack somewhat of excusing his actions in hindsight at best and as an apologia at worst.
I hope that you didn't study History at university...
 
#46
Look, what this comes down to is that Realpolitik is a bitch. Which is why we still deal with and sell arms to nasty b*astards like the Saudis, to prevent them from sharing bedtime pleasure melons with the Russians or Chinese.

Another Spanish counterfactual: Franco doesn't kick off about the results of the election, and enough Soviet fellow-travellers are in the government to allow Stalin to muscle his way in, effectively annexing Spain by means of a proxy government and "military advisors / aid". Exactly the same result as the previous counterfactual, with the end result of WW2 being worse than it was for British interests, and dare I say it, liberal Western civilisation.

Or another one: if Lenin hadn't overthrown the democratically-elected Kerensky government in 1917 we wouldn't be having this discussion either, since there wouldn't have been Soviet support for the Nationalists so Franco likely wouldn't have felt the need to do what he did to avoid Spain turning into a Soviet proxy state.

Basically Spain was a situation that couldn't end well, and didn't end well. It was shït sandwich or turd burger time, and Spain was f*cked either way. But there's several ways in which the whole situation could have ended far worse for the UK, and indeed the world.
 

Sixty

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#47
I hope that you didn't study History at university...
There will come a day when you do somewhat more than snipe from the sidelines. I refuse to hold my breath though, in the interim.
 
#48
OK, another counterfactual. Franco doesn't exist. Forget him. Consider this in terms of British interests and the general war effort.

Remembering that the USSR and all its fellow travellers were anti-war with Germany between Molotov-Ribbentrop and Barbarossa, imagine if Soviet-sympathetic Spain, on the insistence of Stalin, siezes Gibraltar in 1940 or early 1941. In reality, to help his de facto ally Hitler, but couched in the propaganda in terms of anti-colonialism and anti-imperialism.

How does this affect the war? Positively or negatively?
 

Sixty

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#52
Merely following your fine example old chap! How's your PhD dissertation coming on, btw?
That added lots to the discussion. Keep going, you non-contributory dullard.
 
#57
Or to posit an alternative question is there any scenario where a Soviet controlled/allied Communist Spain would have benefitted our war effort prior to barbarosa?
 
#59
On the Franco/Barbarossa thing. Regardless of whatever happened Hitler was going to stab Stalin in the back. In his mind the Untermensch required cleansing and he needed an oil field or two.

Given that the Germans had already had a crack at the Spaniards and given one half of the country a headache it was unlikely, should the country have had a Stalin love in. that it would have ben effective in any conflict. There was a Vichy buffer as well and add a division or two of Germans to the mix and the Spaniards wouldn't be much of a fight. In '41 Britain wasn't in any state to go support a Stalinist Spain.

As to who started concentration camps and did what to whom there's a list of them here:
List of concentration and internment camps - Wikipedia
Seems half the world has had a dabble in concentration or internment camps at some time or other.
 
#60
For those who favour the Spanish threat stopping the Germans having a go at Russia then think again.
Having an open flank with the Brits didn't stop Adolf going towards Moscow. Why would a Republican Spanish Army that was not equipped for armoured warfare and tired after a Civil war be a major threat? A division or two could have kept them at bay given that the access routes through the Pyrenees are relatively easily defended. The Vichy forces could have kept them at bay.

The only way it would have made a difference would have been if the UK allied with a pro-soviet government and provided a foothold on the continent, though one distant from the main objectives. We only got into the continent when the US was on board so that would have been a prerequisite.
Gib would have had a bit more freedom and Italy menaced but without the yanks we couldn't have stopped Barbarossa. The truth is that the Germans lost the war in Russia everything else was just adjusting the results.
 

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