General Dannat calls for another brigade

Did Iraq really really creep up on us ? We invaded them didn't we. Did we do it in secret from ourselves ?
It kind of did. There the Iraqis were for years, WMDs at the ready, 40 seconds away from nuking London. It was a close run thing as the Duke might have said, until somebody realised the creeping danger posed by the dastardly Iraqis.
 
Did Iraq really really creep up on us ? We invaded them didn't we. Did we do it in secret from ourselves ?
1st time around, the Eye-rackie invasion of Kuwait, which threatened stability in the middle east - and oil prices for everybody, was indeedy a very great big surprise.

2nd time around, the tw@t called Rumsfeld surprised every other member of The Shrub's top team by announcing that going into AFG was an insufficient response to the 9/11 attack. It was necessary (according to him) to "look strong" . . . . which meant attacking Eye-Rack - which had no connection whatever with 9/11.

History will decide whether Eye-rack and The Ghan have made the West look weak or strong - but I know where I'd lodge my fiver if I was off to Ladbrokes to bet on the outcome of that particular line of analysis - part of which, I am pretty sure is shaping Putin's plan of action even as I type, and I really struggle to see any strong political message coming out of a decision to magically add 3k to our paper ORBAT . . . .
 
I did hear the report on the radio and thought that the timing was immaculate, coupled with back bench attempts to reduced the number of cuts which can't be anything other than a message to NATO that the UK isn't running at the wrong time. Moreover the reduction of cuts application must be more to do with the failure to hit targets on Ta Recruitment
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Not so sure that the fail to recruit or rather raise numbers on the AR is an issue. The AR consists of reg and voluntary components, if you move money from your hand to your pocket you still have the money. In this case getting the money out of the pocket may prove tougher to the Ministers than the accountants led them to believe. remember 95% of all statistics are made up!!!!!
 
Westerners have now got a head-in-the-sand "no existential threat" mentality, whereas Russia sees real threat in anything. IIRC in arms levels negotiations, the Russians even include tanks and aircraft in western museums in their tally of fighting strength.
Even Air Cadet gliders were counted by them as airframes for treaty purposes. Maybe a crabby bullshit dit, but several summers ago an order went out that all air cadet gliders were to be utilised on a given day and time window, and that nothing was to be left in hangars, even u/s airframes. They all had to be out so that they could be counted and verified by Russian satellites overflying the UK!
 
Did the MoD Permanent Secretary go a bit "off message" the other day to the Select Committee? I heard talk on the radio that he said that mistakes were made in the Defence review assumptions but cannot find any reporting other than an oblique reference in a BBC article
 

jim30

LE
Check Hansard, they usually have the full script up (which can be pretty gruesome!) and is always worth a read. If Jon Thompson went 'off message' then remember that he is a very sharp operator and would not stray unless he judgedhe could so...


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Jeneral28

Old-Salt
Good luck in finding the manpower....
 

Jeneral28

Old-Salt
well he did preside over a larger force during his time. And if he open his gap then, what do you think would have happened?
 
Now another General joins the debate.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592770/One-hell-risk-UKs-highest-ranking-general-warns-politicians-gambling-Britains-security-slashing-Army-20-000-troops.html


General Shirreff talking about "a gamble", a massive risk and he wouldn't want anyone to say he thinks Army 2020 is a good thing - it's not.

I know Generals tend to get more outspoken as they near retirement but this and other pronouncements seem to smack of some serious second thoughts up high!
 

I.A. Dada

War Hero
1st time around, the Eye-rackie invasion of Kuwait, which threatened stability in the middle east - and oil prices for everybody, was indeedy a very great big surprise.

It was such a profoundly stupid and irrational act that nobody anticipated it.

2nd time around, the tw@t called Rumsfeld surprised every other member of The Shrub's top team by announcing that going into AFG was an insufficient response to the 9/11 attack. It was necessary (according to him) to "look strong" . . . . which meant attacking Eye-Rack - which had no connection whatever with 9/11.

It was such a profoundly stupid and irrational act that nobody anticipated it.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
I'm unsure what Gen Sheriff means about the RN not being involved with NATO.

The 3 Star Maritime Commander is RN
The Maritime HQ is in UK, mostly funded by RN and large parts of the staff ar RN
In my area of C3 the RN is Chair of several prominent working groups, as well as suppling staffing.
We have written 4 of the major maritime documents that have taken NATO forward towards as more effects based command structure and streamlined the bloated old C2 structures.
FOST is in effect a NATO training and validation agency

Our Battle Staff are about to take over as the Maritime element of NRF, as well as maintaining our 1* Battle Staff in the Gulf, maintaining our Amphibious Ready Group 1 Star commanders (RN and RM), staffing for UK specific HQ's and still having all our people manning NATO MCC.

OK we don't have platforms dedicated to Standing NATO task forces but we have been busy these last few years on actual OPS. We do provide platforms as and when for NATO OPS and during Libya were one of two major maritime players.

The RN has felt for sometime that other nations should be more active in providing platforms for the standing groups and that when needed we have provided the people, C2 infrastructure and where needed the ships.

We are not in a perfect state, there is always more we could wish for but we are no were as bad as people seem to make out.

Remove the Royal Navy from NATO and then see the pain.
 
Now another General joins the debate.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592770/One-hell-risk-UKs-highest-ranking-general-warns-politicians-gambling-Britains-security-slashing-Army-20-000-troops.html


General Shirreff talking about "a gamble", a massive risk and he wouldn't want anyone to say he thinks Army 2020 is a good thing - it's not.

I know Generals tend to get more outspoken as they near retirement but this and other pronouncements seem to smack of some serious second thoughts up high!
Full interview is in The Times (subscription access only for onlne readers), but the Grauniad has thoroughly plagiarised it. Interestingly Shirreff says the Def Min has made a good fist of a bad hand, but points out that Defence 2020 needs Joe Public and (in particular) Employers to get four-square behind it if it is to have any chance of working.

It's a more reasoned stance than "More Tanks", but I fear (Ukraine crisis notwithstanding) it will fall on deaf ears, and will not be taken up by senior officers still serving, lest they be seen to be rocking the boat.
 
Now another General joins the debate.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592770/One-hell-risk-UKs-highest-ranking-general-warns-politicians-gambling-Britains-security-slashing-Army-20-000-troops.html


General Shirreff talking about "a gamble", a massive risk and he wouldn't want anyone to say he thinks Army 2020 is a good thing - it's not.

I know Generals tend to get more outspoken as they near retirement but this and other pronouncements seem to smack of some serious second thoughts up high!
The former SHAPE Commander has a a credible viewpoint however yet another whom waits until he shuts the door 'behind' him, would'nt want a slap on the wrist on leaving office ;-)
 
I'm unsure what Gen Sheriff means about the RN not being involved with NATO...
I suspect he meant the RN's inability to spare units to SNMG1 (more familiar as STANAVFORLANT), SNMG2 (formerly STANAVFORMED) and SNMCMG1 (formerly STANAVFORCHAN) in recent years as these were among the most prominent public manifestations of RN participation in NATO. The RN has always been a key player in other roles you mention (or similar) but they are by no means as obvious as a white ensign-wearing destroyer or frigate routinely pitching up with those of other navies for exercises and operational visits in foreign parts.
 
Mcm1 is routinely filled if my Facebook updates are anything to go by....
 
Having been part of MBS as they ready for NRF validation, the entire nause starts about 2 years before. We took over from the French: we asked for their training framework, risk register etc etc; they looked at us with utter incomprehension....
 

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