General Carter to be CDS - Reports breaking

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This was a 90 minute show about 100 years of the RAF, one would have thought that a tall order from the start, and it was. They totally ignored the WAAF for example, as well as Coastal, and Air Transport Commands, the Inter-war years in Iraq and the Empire, the contribtion of air power in the Desert War and Mediterranean campaigns not to mention Normandy. The whole of the late 40's, and post-war period right up to the present was also skipped, but they found ten minutes to devote to the ATA, which wasn't even part of the RAF or an armed service at all.

Why was that I wonder?
I suspect that as well as the obvious desire to be seen to be inclusive (presumably General Carter is part of the promotion board for them...), the fact that the programme was meant to be a a two- or even three-part affair when first mooted. The reason for this was to allow coverage of pretty much all the bits you mention...

I would guess that the following happened:

1. The production company found it easier to replicate previous McGregor Brothers programmes
2. Someone concluded that the Coastal Command bits would be boring
3. The historical advisors used have written about the historical stuff in the programme, but not on the missing subject areas.
4. The veterans interviewed are mainly those known to the production company through previous programmes, thus subjects not previously covered went uncovered. Also, for the pre-1939 stuff, there are few surviving veterans to interview.

On the plus side, Godders (now known in some circles as 'Air Officer Celebrity Flying' through no fault of his own) got to add another celeb to his list, and Moggy Morgan got some recognition at long last rather than a certain gentleman already mentioned in the thread...

We now return you to CDS (Desig) and his plans to reform the services by having a joint approach to the mode in which sleeves should be worn at the Schwerpunkt. Or something like that...
 
I know what the ATA were thanks, and also that only one in eight of them were female, not that you would have know that from the program.
This was a 90 minute show about 100 years of the RAF, one would have thought that a tall order from the start, and it was. They totally ignored the WAAF for example, as well as Coastal, and Air Transport Commands, the Inter-war years in Iraq and the Empire, the contribtion of air power in the Desert War and Mediterranean campaigns not to mention Normandy. The whole of the late 40's, and post-war period right up to the present was also skipped, but they found ten minutes to devote to the ATA, which wasn't even part of the RAF or an armed service at all.

Why was that I wonder?
Well argued!
 
That's 4 months on and 4 off for two and a half years
Yup.

It was a busy time. 2RRF, 2RGJ and more than a few other units worked at that pace in that period. Not all tours were 4 months duration, nor - by the same token- did they all have 4 months lead-time: when circumstances arose, it could be a coupla days.

But then, it was a full-on, unavoidable, UK national security problem, not a coalition op - which meant operational conditions dictated the force levels committed. UK government couldn't proffer up a Brigade for year or two, just to keep it's partners happy.

It was shit-or-bust/here-and-now/hand-to-mouth stuff.
 
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Yup.

It was a busy time. 2RRF, 2RGJ and more than a few other units worked at that pace in that period. Not all tours were 4 months duration, nor - by the same token- did they all have 4 months lead-time: when circumstances arose, it could be a coupla days.

But then, it was a full-on, unavoidable, UK national security problem, not a coalition op - which meant operational conditions dictated the force levels committed. UK government couldn't proffer up a Brigade for year or two, just to keep it's partners happy.

It was shit-or-bust/here-and-now.
And ultimately unsuccessful
 
"5 tours in Belfast in 30 months"?

That's 4 months on and 4 off for two and a half years, really? I know that there was a period where UK based bns. were doing 4 on and 8 off but 4/4 seems not only excessive but unmanageable frankly.

It happened! And in between there was Public Duties, overseas exercises, Support Weapons concentrations... and training for the next tour of NI!
 
It happened! And in between there was Public Duties, overseas exercises, Support Weapons concentrations... and training for the next tour of NI!
Indeed.

2RRF did five their first 5 tours only after leaving Gibraltar in 1971. The Troubles had been on the go for at least two years by then.

I'm pretty sure I met infantry SNCOs with 10 NI tours behind them, instructing on my PCD course in the summer of 1975.
 
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Yup.

It was a busy time. 2RRF, 2RGJ and more than a few other units worked at that pace in that period. Not all tours were 4 months duration, nor - by the same token- did they all have 4 months lead-time: when circumstances arose, it could be a coupla days.

But then, it was a full-on, unavoidable, UK national security problem, not a coalition op - which meant operational conditions dictated the force levels committed. UK government couldn't proffer up a Brigade for year or two, just to keep it's partners happy.

It was shit-or-bust/here-and-now.
And ultimately unsuccessful
Are you sure?

The peace process helped the Corrs leave Ireland and go international. Dundalk certainly calmed down after they left town.

Agreeing not to press cruel and unusual punishment clauses against Dublin for letting them travel overseas was also key to getting everyone round the table.
 
Indeed.

2RRF did five their first 5 tours only after leaving Gibraltar in 1971. The Troubles had been on the go for at least two years by then.

I'm pretty sure I met infantry SNCOs with 10 NI tours behind them, instructing on my PCD course in the summer of 1975.
My old regiment - 1KOSB :- NI and overseas commitments in the 1970s -

1 in 1970 (from Osnabruck).
2 in '71, one was of short duration for the 'Marching Season' (from Edinburgh).
2 in '72 (from Edinburgh).
1 in 73 (from Edinburgh).
Berlin '73-75.
Palace Barracks 18 month tour '75-'76.
EX in Kenya '77 (from Fort George).
Belize '78 (from Fort George)
1 in 1979 (from Fort George).

Overseas EX in Sharjah and Cyprus and Public Duties at Balmoral and Edinburgh Castle in between tours '71 and '73.
London Public Duties in '77.

We were not unique!
 
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My old regiment - 1KOSB :- NI and overseas commitments in the 1970s -

1 in 1970 (from Osnabruck).
2 in '71, one was of short duration for the 'Marching Season' (from Edinburgh).
2 in '72 (from Edinburgh).
1 in 73 (from Edinburgh).
Berlin '73-75.
Palace Barracks 18 month tour '75-'76.
EX in Kenya '77 (from Fort George).
Belize '78 (from Fort George)
1 in 1979 (from Fort George).

Overseas EX in Sharjah and Cyprus and Public Duties at Balmoral and Edinburgh Castle in between tours '71 and '73.
London Public Duties in '77.

We were not unique!
[MONTY PYTHON COD YORKSHIRE ACCENT]Aye, but tell that t' young 'uns t'day, and they wooon't believe yer [/MONTY PYTHON COD YORKSHIRE ACCENT] :)
 
And ultimately unsuccessful
Oh, I don't know. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK for as long as the inhabitants continue to want it, the terrorists have pretty much given up terrorism apart from the fringe loonies, the IRA is disarmed and is no longer blowing half-billion-pound holes in London (or thousand-pound holes in Belfast), and we don't need 20,000 troops deployed there on MACP operations.

The bigots have largely been driven out of power, everyone in NI has the vote and fair representation, and all communities generally accept the rule of law and the democratic process. Maybe they're lagging the social attitudes of the rest of the UK, but they started from further behind.

The UK won the intelligence war, the technical war, and (most importantly) the political war. So... why "unsuccessful"?
 
[MONTY PYTHON COD YORKSHIRE ACCENT]Aye, but tell that t' young 'uns t'day, and they wooon't believe yer [/MONTY PYTHON COD YORKSHIRE ACCENT] :)
And the 1960s with 1KOSB

Berlin 1959- '61.
Aden 1962-'64
Radfan 1964 (from Shorncliffe)
Hong Kong, Malaya, Borneo 1965-'66
Exercise in Libya 1967
Osnabruck 1967-'70... almost constantly on one exercise or another including Libya.

Great times - happy days... youngsters joined for the travel back then, they were not disappointed!
 
Oh, I don't know. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK for as long as the inhabitants continue to want it, the terrorists have pretty much given up terrorism apart from the fringe loonies, the IRA is disarmed and is no longer blowing half-billion-pound holes in London (or thousand-pound holes in Belfast), and we don't need 20,000 troops deployed there on MACP operations.

The bigots have largely been driven out of power, everyone in NI has the vote and fair representation, and all communities generally accept the rule of law and the democratic process. Maybe they're lagging the social attitudes of the rest of the UK, but they started from further behind.

The UK won the intelligence war, the technical war, and (most importantly) the political war. So... why "unsuccessful"?
Bless. You can interpret history how you want. If it makes you feel better then the murdering of British civilians by British soldiers was a glorious chapter in British history.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Bless. You can interpret history how you want. If it makes you feel better then the murdering of British civilians by British soldiers was a glorious chapter in British history.
PIRA are just like the Germans post WW1 who said as they were not beaten on the battlefield then they did not lose WW1 making a political hole in the German society. This overlooks the fact that the Germans were in fact beaten in battle, were being pushed back all along the Front and were in almost complete disarray. Their country was beaten militarily, politically and socially by the war.

PIRA also say they were unbeaten even though by the time of the GFA they were almost completely penetrated by British intelligence, were beaten in the streets and in the border area and were nowhere near the strength.th if the late 70s and 80s - to put it simply they were beaten and extremely glad to get the GFA. If Blair had not been so anxious to get his name up in lights then the PIRA could have been driven even further and no stupid get-out-of-jail-cards would have been issued to PIRA murderers! The IRA lost and McGuiness knew that so went totally down the political route.

You @widow11 are a tosser.
 
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PIRA are just like the Germans post WW1 who said as they were not beaten on the battlefield then they did not lose WW1 making a political hole in the German society. This overlooks the fact that the Germans were in fact beaten in battle, were being pushed back all along the Front and were in almost complete disarray. Their country was beaten militarily, politically and socially by the war.

PIRA also say they were unbeaten even though by the time of the GFA they were almost completely penetrated by British intelligence, were beaten in the streets and in the border area and were nowhere near the strength.th if the late 70s and 80s - to put it simply they were beaten and extremely glad to get the GFA. If Blair had not been so anxious to get his name up in lights then the PIRA could have been driven even further and no stupid get-out-of-jail-cards would have been issued to PIRA murderers! The IRA lost and McGuiness knew that so went totally down the political route.

You @widow11 are a tosser.
Matthew Ch 7 v5 would seem to be your best response in this instance.

King James V edition, obviously :)
 
Given that culture eats strategy for breakfast, you will find medical professionals drawing lessons from those nations most similar to their own. As an example, the placement of physicians in the "paramedic" space concentrates on three paradigms: physician based (France as an example), Paramedic based (US and South Africa are examples) and mixed (the UK and Australia are examples here). Thus, a medical paper that suggests high level interventions (thoracotamies and the provision of RSI at the point of injury are classic examples) won't gain much traction in the US, because Paramedics simply aren't trained to do that kind of thing. Likewise, a "scoop and run" approach with minimal "at scene" intervention won't be credible in France because it's culturally anathema.

So, whilst nearly all of the "science" of medicine is transferable between any country, the "art of medicine" must take into account wider cultural issues within a country (or group of countries). I'd suggest the same wider principle can be applied to any human endeavour, including war.

Mebbe that's just me.


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Not that I am an Officer or anything.....but:

That strikes me as deeply profound and realistic about human nature. Nevermind countries, can the three services accept advise from each other? Will polticians favour senior officers most like them and accept their advise over others? Within a unit, if the COC has a 'them and us' attitude towards people with the 'wrong' specialisms? Not one of us.....
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
Not that I am an Officer or anything.....but:

That strikes me as deeply profound and realistic about human nature. Nevermind countries, can the three services accept advise from each other? Will polticians favour senior officers most like them and accept their advise over others? Within a unit, if the COC has a 'them and us' attitude towards people with the 'wrong' specialisms? Not one of us.....
It is a sad fact that second rate leaders and managers (which is most of them) feel more comfortable with like-minded subordinates who don't rock their boat. It is a rare event that a leader arises who welcomes challenging input. Which IMHO is why history is an ongoing story of failed leadership. Thank God for Alanbrooke.
 
Carrying on from my reflection about culture, one of the great faults of human nature is the following paradox:

Information Theory indicates that the rarer a message, the more information it coveys. In other words, the more uncertainty it resolves. However, Psychology tell us that the less expected a message is, or the less emotionally acceptable it is, the less likely it is to be accepted. Therefore the most important messages will be disregarded, and the messenger often punished.
 

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