Gen. Odierno's History of the Iraq War Released

Yarra

Old-Salt
I cant fault that.

I would suggest though that there were those in the State Department in particular who had convinced themselves that somehow a new, pro western, nation would emerge without any effort whatsoever.

I would also add that there were rather too many folks in uniform on both sides of the pond who thought the same thing.
Neo-Con conquest Lite: I know, let's disband the Iraqi Army and immediately criminalise the entire senior leadership. Look we've even produced a pack of cards!

The Brits? Errr, no you can entirely ignore their suggestion to retain the IA in Barracks on full pay. What'd we wanna do that for?

HUAH!

(... D CCmd; oh, ffs....)
 
I think Tony Blair also got carried away by the whole 'UK punching above its weight' thing and saw the opportunity to stride about the world stage at the same time as increasing influence with the US, particularly after Kosovo, where all he saw was his finest hour without realising how lucky he'd been and how close to failure the whole thing had come.

He didn't realise the limits of hard power, he wasn't prepared to expend political capital to ensure the Army could fight the extended COIN Ops it was being asked to take on and his Chancellor hated the armed forces and wouldn't deliver the necessary spending to sustain the increased commitments. It didn't help either that Blair didn't realise how fast operations degrade fighting forces, that western ultra-liberals hi-jacked policy and decided that we should attempt a complete cultural revolution on the cheap and that no-one could clearly articulate a successful and achievable endstate in either Iraq of Afghanistan, let alone seek to implement a coherent means of doing so.

By the end of things the only policy objective was to slink away and hope that nobody noticed.
This is the real hot potato, imho.

The notion that we could bring democracy to the Middle East without thinking whether people in Iraq and Afghanistan actually want it. Islam in those parts of the world is sexist and culturally oppressive, it is not compatible with Western concepts of equality and freedom and it's myopic to think that they would want these things. Just like Saudi Arabia, they want the money and the power, but they don't want the cultural responsibility to go with it.
 
This is the real hot potato, imho.

The notion that we could bring democracy to the Middle East without thinking whether people in Iraq and Afghanistan actually want it. Islam in those parts of the world is sexist and culturally oppressive, it is not compatible with Western concepts of equality and freedom and it's myopic to think that they would want these things. Just like Saudi Arabia, they want the money and the power, but they don't want the cultural responsibility to go with it.
You can't turn a 7th century mindset into a 21st century mindset. It was a doomed effort and it will never succeed.
 

Truxx

LE
You can't turn a 7th century mindset into a 21st century mindset. It was a doomed effort and it will never succeed.
Except it wasn't a 7th century mindset, at least not in Iraq. Massively cultured, well educated, remarkably westernised (The Officer Training Academy was modelled on Sandhurst) and we (UK and the US) had even put Sadaam in power)
 
Except it wasn't a 7th century mindset, at least not in Iraq. Massively cultured, well educated, remarkably westernised (The Officer Training Academy was modelled on Sandhurst) and we (UK and the US) had even put Sadaam in power)
Man Love Thursday?? Well maybe in San Francisco...
 

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