Gas Masks and stuff, The GSR The FM12 and did the MOD drop a Bollock ?

Grobnob

Swinger
Morning all.
I was leafing through my Survive to Fight from 2005, the 5th edition that fits in a Filofax.
It has drills for donning the S10 and the FM12, both from Avon, the Army's go to gas mask maker for decades. Yes I know it should be called a respirator, but I don't care.

Was the FM-12 going to be the next mask and the Army changed their mind ?
Is it true that Scott stepped in with a cheaper quote and the MOD decided that with Saddam not having his WMDs anyway it hardly mattered so might as well save a few quid ?
Is it true that Avon had to step in and sort out the Scott GSR, the same way H&K did with the SA85 bullpup ?

There's too many idiots talking apocryphal crap on the internet and I'd be curious to know why the Army changed from Avon to Scott and why the FM-12 was featured in the CBRN manual in 2005. I see the S6 is mentioned in STF Edition 2 in 1990 as a legacy mask on it's way out.

Anyone know anything ?

IMG_20200628_092137.jpg


Semi nudes of Wives and Girlfriends in gas masks will be considered for the ham shank bank and will be marked out of ten with the winner receiving a genuine SAS rifle sling.
 

Boxy

GCM
Dredging my memories, wasn’t the FM12 for ‘half’ size faces? I certainly came across a few whilst teaching at TA Ph 1
 

Grobnob

Swinger
l
Dredging my memories, wasn’t the FM12 for ‘half’ size faces? I certainly came across a few whilst teaching at TA Ph 1
S6 and FM12 came in Small, Medium and Large.
S10 came in 4 sizes with 4 being extra small. They were issued to diplomatic staff and their families, so had a kid's size available.
Dunno what the GSR comes in but it looks like a skateboarder's toy mask.
 
Wasn't the GSR supposed to be easier to breathe through than the S10? In my experience, it isn't but has the added bonus of having a really shoddy fit, despite the many adjustable straps and heavy.
 

Grobnob

Swinger
Wasn't the GSR supposed to be easier to breathe through than the S10? In my experience, it isn't but has the added bonus of having a really shoddy fit, despite the many adjustable straps and heavy.
'Supposed to be. . . '
LOL. I think the theory is that if you have two filters you only have to breathe half as hard. They made a big point of the valves allowing you breathe through one filter while you change the other and scrabble around your MTP field pack (the best thing about the new kit, I use one for my camera, lunch and water while walking the dog) looking for the nasty plastic things encased in shrink wrap. As far as I can tell it's a cheap version of the Avon M50 the Yanks were so keen on they had Avon open a factory in the states just to supply them with masks.
 
'Supposed to be. . . '
LOL. I think the theory is that if you have two filters you only have to breathe half as hard. They made a big point of the valves allowing you breathe through one filter while you change the other and scrabble around your MTP field pack (the best thing about the new kit, I use one for my camera, lunch and water while walking the dog) looking for the nasty plastic things encased in shrink wrap. As far as I can tell it's a cheap version of the Avon M50 the Yanks were so keen on they had Avon open a factory in the states just to supply them with masks.
I remember just before it came out, some fella from DE&S was briefing in Soldier magazine that you could do a PFA in it with minimal effect.

Having placed one on my face, I can assess, that that fella was talking weapons grade bull dung.
 

morsk

LE
I asked the same question. The GSR is 10,000* times more effective than the S10. I imagine that had something to do with it.


*figure quoted to me by a CBRN ninja at Winterbourne, to which I asked if he had maybe forgotten a decimal point. No. 10,000 was the actual figure.
 
Dredging my memories, wasn’t the FM12 for ‘half’ size faces? I certainly came across a few whilst teaching at TA Ph 1
Yup - the S10 didn’t quite fit everyone, so the FM12 was used for people with funny faces (possibly those NFN).

When in the regulars I was a CBRN instructor btw - and in the reserves I think the GSR far better to breathe in. Although bigger and heavier then the S10 the situational awareness is far better due to wider face piece. The dual filters are a bit fiddly - but the screw on one on the S10 could be a pain too. Plus you can keep on breathing with only one filter.

The duty rumours regarding the delay in introduction were that the faceplate had a nasty habit of popping off. There are no reports of this occurring in the issued version.

In my opinion a far better bit of kit than the S10.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
For those with Frankenstein shaped swedes the FM12 was an option for those who couldn't get the standard S10 to fit. It was similar enough to the S10 that the drills and canisters could be the same.
The GSR was a massive increase in protection.
The twin canister and airlocks design meant that if you cocked up the canister change you could continue breathing while you sorted yourself out, without having to develop the lungs of Moby Dick.
Since each canister is almost as good as the single one on the S10, the airflow is much better, and the rate of fogging is much lower. Drinking system is much better as well.
What the GSR isn't is soldier proof. You could abuse the S10 and it would work.
Although the vision is much better, the canister design makes shooting much harder.
As a PPE respirator, it's brilliant. As a piece of military equipment, not so great.
 
I asked the same question. The GSR is 10,000* times more effective than the S10. I imagine that had something to do with it.


*figure quoted to me by a CBRN ninja at Winterbourne, to which I asked if he had maybe forgotten a decimal point. No. 10,000 was the actual figure.
It was used extensively in Salisbury and didn't let anyone down; interestingly, the Police initally used their FM-12s, before being issued with GSRs from MoD stocks.
 

morsk

LE
It was used extensively in Salisbury and didn't let anyone down; interestingly, the Police initally used their FM-12s, before being issued with GSRs from MoD stocks.
It is an excellent piece of kit. We are pretty much world leaders in CBRN and our kit and training is second to none. Lets hope we never need to use it for real, however, if we do, it would not be a drama. If only units would exercise with a CBRN phase more often....
 

Niamac

GCM
Saw a little old fat guy out shopping this morning wearing a Warsaw pact style full-face respirator. Don't know where he is going to get re-supply of the cartridges.
 

TamH70

MIA
Saw a little old fat guy out shopping this morning wearing a Warsaw pact style full-face respirator. Don't know where he is going to get re-supply of the cartridges.
Varustelaka probably.
 

Grobnob

Swinger
Saw a little old fat guy out shopping this morning wearing a Warsaw pact style full-face respirator. Don't know where he is going to get re-supply of the cartridges.
Ebay. Polish firms still make filters with the Gost thread. Although by the time you've paid for it and postage a Nato mask and some Scott P3s will have been cheaper.
 
Yup - the S10 didn’t quite fit everyone, so the FM12 was used for people with funny faces (possibly those NFN).

When in the regulars I was a CBRN instructor btw - and in the reserves I think the GSR far better to breathe in. Although bigger and heavier then the S10 the situational awareness is far better due to wider face piece. The dual filters are a bit fiddly - but the screw on one on the S10 could be a pain too. Plus you can keep on breathing with only one filter.

The duty rumours regarding the delay in introduction were that the faceplate had a nasty habit of popping off. There are no reports of this occurring in the issued version.

In my opinion a far better bit of kit than the S10.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
What would you know, eh? Some chap who was in the TA for 5 mins in 1989 knows better than you
 

Grobnob

Swinger
There's also a theory that the MOD wanted the Avon M50 but . . .
1. The Yanks got there first and had an exclusive deal.
2. Scott Safety undercut the quote with the GSR.
avon_m50_mask-231mmx.jpg
britisharmygsrmask-01.jpg
 

Grobnob

Swinger

MOD dropped a bollock. Case closed.

Memorandum from Avon Protection

Avon Protection, Britain's Wiltshire-based leading manufacturer of NBC respirators, has an interest in the General Service Respirator procurement that the Committee proposes to discuss on 27 June with witnesses from MoD's Defence Procurement Agency.

In 2004, Avon Protection tendered for the MoD contract to develop and supply some 312,000 of the new GSR, and was disappointed, and somewhat surprised, to lose the order to US-owned contractor, Scott Health and Safety. Avon had already secured an order in 1999 to develop and supply 2,500,000 units of a similar new product—the M50 respirator—from the US government, won in open competition. Avon was given to understand, in the DPA's contract award debrief, that our bid had been rejected on price, and on the belief in MoD that we would not be able to meet the MoD's delivery requirements as well as those of the US government.

In rejecting the Avon offer, the opportunity for interoperability in combat with our major ally was also lost.

We are therefore curious that two years later, reports from a variety of sources within the test and trials community indicate that the Scott GSR programme has development problems and trials have not gone well.

It is public knowledge that GSR is running late, that the In-service date has been missed, that it is now unlikely to meet its target of introduction into service this summer and that the Initial Operating Capability has been reduced from 45,000 to 25,000

MoD/DPA has set a very high Protection Factor requirement which is significantly higher than the target set for NATO or US Forces, and we believe cannot be measured accurately yet on a wearer in a combat environment.

It is our understanding that problems with GSR include:



  • — Poor functionality—twin filters are very large and difficult to operate.


  • — Wearers find it very difficult to achieve a satisfactory fit on the face for testing to be carried out.


  • — Difficulties with inner filter becoming blocked by moisture (sweat) build up.


  • — Mask is unlikely to achieve the very high level of protection demanded due to the filter arrangement.


  • — Integration with weapons and equipment has proved unacceptable to users.


  • — Firing trials had to be abandoned as users were unable to obtain a sight picture.


  • — Speech transmission is unacceptably poor.


  • — Potential users have very low confidence level in future mask.
We would like the Committee to know that the British developed M50, or variant, could be made available now to the UK. This option would provide significant savings to the UK taxpayer in both initial purchase and whole life cost, provide a more robust and exhaustively tested gas mask for the UK Armed Forces and prevent the move of another industrial capability to the US.

22 June 2006
 

Latest Threads

Top