Gangs rampage in Sudans capital

#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4741149.stm

Violence is spreading across Sudan's capital, Khartoum, as riots which began after ex-rebel leader John Garang died have turned into retaliatory attacks.
Tear gas has been used and a military helicopter is flying low over the city centre, where gangs of men with clubs and automatic weapons are roaming.

There are traffic jams as residents try to flee. In three days of violence the death toll has risen to 84.
We need to be getting in and getting a grip of this now. The last time an African leader died in an air crash , lots of people died.
 
#2
If they want to act like animals then let them, i'm sick and tired of the West acting as if we should respond to everything that happens abroad.
 
#3
If they want to act like animals then let them, i'm sick and tired of the West acting as if we should respond to everything that happens abroad.

You're sick and tired? No worries, we'll wait for them all to arrive at Dover with a legitimate claim to asylum shall we?

When was the last time the West acted premptively to prevent a disaster?
.
 
#4
Let them get on with it, muslim killing muslim, sounds good to me...less of them to try and screw our system. Not one Sudanese should be let into the country if they have travelled through or over a safe country.
 
#5
The Southern Sudanese are Christians. They fought a rebel war because they were being persecuted and brutalised.
 
#7
PartTimePongo said:
If they want to act like animals then let them, i'm sick and tired of the West acting as if we should respond to everything that happens abroad.

You're sick and tired? No worries, we'll wait for them all to arrive at Dover with a legitimate claim to asylum shall we?

When was the last time the West acted premptively to prevent a disaster?
.
And then when it all goes to shit we still get blamed! Either way we loose mate. Which would you prefer, leaving them to get on with it or a few more british service personnel's names on the role of the war dead?

sorry just in a bit of a mood... :?
 
#8
There isn’t the political will to help out and why should there be? Every time the west has stepped in to solve problems in Africa it has only been a short term fix and the country involved has reverted to type shortly afterwards. Africa has to evolve from the tribal barbaric society it is today into something better before we should further engage with them. We colonised the continent and introduced all our western democratic ways. After we left they rejected all of that and so they have to figure out for themselves what they want. If they are going to kill each other off while they find out then so be it, their choice.

If you feel so strongly you should be doing more then why not volunteer to go out there yourself and put your money where your mouth is part time politician, instead of suggesting others put their lives on the line all the time?
 
#9
let them slot each other throwing money and resources at the problem has not helped. Ethiopia, Somalia, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Rawanda, Sudan, etc..

There is a saying you can take the animal out of the jungle but never the jungle out of the animal. Holds true in this case.
 
#10
If you feel so strongly you should be doing more then why not volunteer to go out there yourself and put your money where your mouth is part time politician, instead of suggesting others put their lives on the line all the time
Because I already have put my money where my mouth is in 1994. I got off my arrse and got directly involved in the last mess when an aircraft crashed and people started murdering each other wholesale. I didn't stick a pound in the poor box or buy a wristband or a single, I got out there and did it.

It was the most bloody awful thing I ever saw, but I am glad I did it , it means I can speak from personal experience , of what happens when a situation like this is left to fester. Before I went to Rwanda , my opinion was mostly in the "They bring it on themselves" camp. But having seen how a few people in charge on either side, can destroy the lives of the populace , I realised the vast majority of those affected are just Civpop who want to get on with their lives in peace.

We should, as the first world, be doing our best to ensure they can, and bring some hard pressure to bear on those leaders that drive their countries into the gutter for personal gain or greed.

I made the point on another thread, that I had yet to see St. Geldof criticise the real villains of the piece in Africa, and I'm still waiting.I guess bitching about Schroder, Chirac, Blair etc , is far more newsworthy than actually criticising the small clique in each of these trobled countries who are directly responsible.

When I say "We need to be doing something to stop this sliding into conflict, I am not suggesting invading Sudan, it's not 1890.

I'm saying we , as in the rest of the world, need to be getting a grip of this situation , and actively doing something to stop that part of the continent sliding towards another civil war. The first choice is through the UN and the AU. Africa says it wants to do more to sort out the problems on it's continent, so let's make sure they have the tools, the means and the support to do that. Civil wars in Africa, have a habit of spreading fast , and in this case the fighting is going to be between Muslims and Christians, and in this current climate , that is dangerous.

We can argue all day long that it is nothing to do with us, and let them get on with it. After all, the media needs it's staple diet of starving babies and kids getting bits blown off them. Somalia was nothing to do with us, but my locale is stiff with Somalian asylum seekers. How did that happen? They're busy driving up the crime figures hereabouts , including attempting to break into this building at 06.30, 6 months ago and causing resentment and problems, but they are here, even though Somalia "was not our problem"

Strange, when anyone suggests invading Zimbabwe , no one says "Oh you're volunteering our troops, why don't you get off your Arrse and do it yourself" No one says "Zimbabwe is a sovereign nation and it's nothing to do with us" Why is that exactly?

It's one planet, we all have to live on it. Yes I do believe we should do more to help our fellow man. I don't believe that should be non-stop handouts and pop concerts , but I do believe we should be acting pre-emptively to stop situations that will affect us in the medium to long term, snowballing.

Maybe the appointment of a neocon to the World Bank , and a self-confessed reformist at the UN is a step in the right direction.
 
#11
Sudan = 70 % Muslim who are in effect cleaning out the 5% Christians.
 
#12
PartTimePongo said:
If you feel so strongly you should be doing more then why not volunteer to go out there yourself and put your money where your mouth is part time politician, instead of suggesting others put their lives on the line all the time
Because I already have put my money where my mouth is in 1994. I got off my arrse and got directly involved in the last mess when an aircraft crashed and people started murdering each other wholesale. I didn't stick a pound in the poor box or buy a wristband or a single, I got out there and did it.

It was the most bloody awful thing I ever saw, but I am glad I did it , it means I can speak from personal experience , of what happens when a situation like this is left to fester. Before I went to Rwanda , my opinion was mostly in the "They bring it on themselves" camp. But having seen how a few people in charge on either side, can destroy the lives of the populace , I realised the vast majority of those affected are just Civpop who want to get on with their lives in peace.

We should, as the first world, be doing our best to ensure they can, and bring some hard pressure to bear on those leaders that drive their countries into the gutter for personal gain or greed.

I made the point on another thread, that I had yet to see St. Geldof criticise the real villains of the piece in Africa, and I'm still waiting.I guess bitching about Schroder, Chirac, Blair etc , is far more newsworthy than actually criticising the small clique in each of these trobled countries who are directly responsible.

When I say "We need to be doing something to stop this sliding into conflict, I am not suggesting invading Sudan, it's not 1890.

I'm saying we , as in the rest of the world, need to be getting a grip of this situation , and actively doing something to stop that part of the continent sliding towards another civil war. The first choice is through the UN and the AU. Africa says it wants to do more to sort out the problems on it's continent, so let's make sure they have the tools, the means and the support to do that. Civil wars in Africa, have a habit of spreading fast , and in this case the fighting is going to be between Muslims and Christians, and in this current climate , that is dangerous.

We can argue all day long that it is nothing to do with us, and let them get on with it. After all, the media needs it's staple diet of starving babies and kids getting bits blown off them. Somalia was nothing to do with us, but my locale is stiff with Somalian asylum seekers. How did that happen? They're busy driving up the crime figures hereabouts , including attempting to break into this building at 06.30, 6 months ago and causing resentment and problems, but they are here, even though Somalia "was not our problem"

Strange, when anyone suggests invading Zimbabwe , no one says "Oh you're volunteering our troops, why don't you get off your Arrse and do it yourself" No one says "Zimbabwe is a sovereign nation and it's nothing to do with us" Why is that exactly?

It's one planet, we all have to live on it. Yes I do believe we should do more to help our fellow man. I don't believe that should be non-stop handouts and pop concerts , but I do believe we should be acting pre-emptively to stop situations that will affect us in the medium to long term, snowballing.

Maybe the appointment of a neocon to the World Bank , and a self-confessed reformist at the UN is a step in the right direction.
Can't help those that don't want to help themsleves...sorry but they don't want nor should we offer any more help. Once there is a clear winner we can reconsider but while they're sorting each other out let the bodies fall where they may
 
#13
ctauch said:
Can't help those that don't want to help themsleves...sorry but they don't want nor should we offer any more help. Once there is a clear winner we can reconsider but while they're sorting each other out let the bodies fall where they may
The winner will be the muslims. So nothing to reconsider..let them stand on their own feet. And that goes for the rest of Africa, IMO.
 
#14
Much respect for having got of your arrse in 94 to help out – can you tell us a little of what you were doing?

That aside you cannot fail to see that ctauch hits the nail on the head. They do not want our help, we’ve tried countless times and they have done nothing to help themselves. Remember Somalia, it was all to try and help them get to a better place and the population basically stuck two fingers up at the US and 11 years on it is still a sh1t hole. The same story in one form or another applies to just about every nation in Africa and there is no sign of much change in the future.

I’m not sure what the answer is but shouldering the responsibility every time they decide to kill each other is not it.
 
#15
Why should 'we'argue that 'we' should send troops to Sudan? The Chinese are attempting to colonise the place and relieve it of its oil. They should do some 'peacekeeping'. They won't, of course. They're far too wise to get that involved. They'll continue to guard the port, pipeline and their wells, though.
 
#16
armourer said:
Sudan = 70 % Muslim who are in effect cleaning out the 5% Christians.
In that case we should definetly get over there to help.

Paint some crossed keys on the vehicles first though.


Have just heard on the BBC that the Muslims in one of the southern cities are legging it out of there 'cos the Christians are "terrorising" them. About fcuking time they got some of their own medicine. :twisted:
 
#17
Hi Ord,

Mostly water runs and food distribution, and teaching Rwandan kids nursery rhymes :D I tried calling agencies here to volunteer before I went , but a lot of the time all I got was "Oh have you ever worked in this sort of situation?" Despite explaining I was Army trained they all didn't seem to want the responsibility.

So in frustration, I phoned TrailFinders, bought a ticket to Entebbe , not really sure what I was going to do, or how I was even going to get into Rwanda. Arrived at Entebbe , and noticed a UN reception area. Marched over , and announced I wanted to help. Nice Belgian? chap on the desk listened to me for a second, and just pointed at a light twin on the tarmac, and said get on that, we'll sort you something to do :D They did. Always remember how beautiful the country was, and fertile as hell by the looks of things. First night I managed to get a bed in the Des Milles Collines. That was a shocker, apart from the hotel being full of holes , it was the UN staff and other bodies drinking Primus heavily , and the main bar area being stiff with 15 year old RPA (Rwandan Psychotic Army) and hookers and that I remember. They weren't shy either, their preferred method of introduction being to make a grab for your 'strike package' or bang on your hotel door to offer room service.

It was calmer but still lawless , and some of the African contingent in UNAMIR shouldn't have been there in my opinion , they just made the job harder. Some of the behaviour of Aid workers beggared belief, but there were a lot of good people there too, including the bravest Ugandan female UN worker I've ever seen , absolutley defending a small teenage girl against the attentions of the RPA. One of the things that sticks in my mind, were the Satuday morning CFT's by the RPA , all manner of weapons, including a Bren Gun and numerous .303's and the footwear was incredible. a mixture of boots, sandals, grey rubber half wellingtons and in one case , and I swear , a male RPA soldier wearing pink high heels.

Whet else do I remember? "Kigali Nights" lol , anyone who was in Rwanda at the time will know what I mean .Oh the Paras throwing water and "improvised sweets" at the kids on the wire at the football stadium , when they were asking for "chocolat" and Major Hill? (Para) Thanks Sir , you could have really dropped me in the sh*t big time :( Huge sacks of corn marked "Gift of the people of the USA" being openly sold on the black market, mine awareness lecture that consisted of "Drive in the tracks of other vehicles and if you hear BOOM! don't immediately stop and jump out, there may be another one underfoot" A Land Rover Fire Engine outside the former Fire Station in Kigali absolutely riddled with holes , sharing a taxi to a briefing with a Brown and Root employee who looked about 12, but was earning "Megamoney" RPA roadblocks that consisted of a youth sat on a plastic chair holding a piece of string, tied to a tree or lampost opposite. We used to stop out of courtesy , and the fact they were armed to the bloody teeth and drugged up to feck in a lot of cases ."You give me one dollar"

All in all , it was an experience , and one I may repeat someday, but differently, now I am older, wiser and realise I am not immortal
 
#18
PartTimePongo said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4741149.stm

Violence is spreading across Sudan's capital, Khartoum, as riots which began after ex-rebel leader John Garang died have turned into retaliatory attacks.
Tear gas has been used and a military helicopter is flying low over the city centre, where gangs of men with clubs and automatic weapons are roaming.

There are traffic jams as residents try to flee. In three days of violence the death toll has risen to 84.
We need to be getting in and getting a grip of this now. The last time an African leader died in an air crash , lots of people died.
I think that the real violence will come when Gerang is buried on Sunday. The other factor to quotient is whether Kiir will lasts as leader, the SPML it seems was held together by Gerang. However I do think that the SPML (provided Kiir lasts) and Khartoum will muddle through, as it looks that the Helicopter crash was an accident (the helicopter being Ugandan and Uganda having supported the SPML and all).

I guess it's arguable that Britain does have at least a historic connection to Sudan with its role in the 1920s of making Sudan into one political entity and the 1952 agreement which led the way for Sudanese independence in 1956. But history aside I think others like the Americans, Chinese, the Arabs and the North Africans could probably play a more effective role in calming tensions than we could.
 

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