Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by OldRedCap, Mar 2, 2005.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. This is an extract of letter from a guy who served in second attack on Gallipoli.
    Note the losses.
    Note the attitude - no condemnation, no blaming the bosses, We don't know his background but he has described things well.
    All this within 12 months of enlistment. What has changed - the people who make up today's society, the training - what. Guys like this made significant contributions to our society - now being destroyed by mealy-mouthed politicos looking for the short term glory in a 'multi-national' (i.e. mongrel) society.
  2. Good post that. I don't know much about the Dardanelles campaign but I saw the film Gallipoli and think it is probably fairly close to the mark.

    You raise an interesting question though. Would the blokes who fought in WW1 have been as keen to lay down their lives if someone like Tony Blair had uttered the call to arms? There must have been considerably more support and respect of the Statesmen.
  3. I think the change is mainly 1 of society.

    even had this bloke not been fighting a war, chances are his job would have been one of hard grafft on a farm or down a mine. it would be a lot harder to take sombody out of a call-centre and expect him to stand up to the physical punishment these guys took.

    as for the attitude- I think people back then accepted their lot and got on with it, like I said, things would hardly have been rosey back home. also there is the fact then that you are fighting in a justified war, which you can attribute to succesful propoganda if you like.

    also, I think back then there was still a sense of community and patriotism, somthing that the country, and commonwealth, has lost since the end of world war 2.
  4. I agree. Patriotism is non existant. How many so called "British" subjects are floating about with no allegience what so ever to Britain as a Nation. Except perhaps on Giro day. I consider myself fortunate to be in the Army where there still is a sense of communuity and nationalist identity of a kind.

    Going off on a tangent to original post now. Sorry.
  5. Or perhaps he was utterly shell-shocked?
  6. In that case, they'd have had him shot at dawn for something or other. Although, were he an officer he would have been sent to a nice rest house to write poetry about the hell of war.
  7. Redcap, can we put this crap to bed.

    3080 death sentences were awarded by GCMs during the Kaisers war, of which 346 were carried out. Five of those sentences were against officers and three were executed. The men executed had been found guilty of the following offences,

    Murder 37
    Mutiny 3
    Cowardice 18
    Desertion 266
    Violence to a superior 6
    Disobediance to a lawful command 5
    Sleeping at post 2
    Quitting a post without authority 7
    Casting away arms 2

    Contrary to myth 'Shellshock' was an accepted defence at a Court Martial providing it was supported by Doctors.

    The figures suggest that one stood more chance of not being executed if a chap was not commissioned.

    As for the chaps sent to a rest home to write poetry, both Sassoon and Owen held MCs. Both were wounded in action.

    Might I suggest you read 'Mud, Blood and Poppycock' by Gordon Corrigan (from where these figures were taken) and The Forgotten Victory by Gary Sheffield. Honest books by honest men not myths perpetrated by members of the acting or literary professions.
  8. Or try Blindfold and Alone by cathryn corns and john hughes wilson, intresting perspective, certainly gives a few new angles on the case of Sub Lt.Dyett RND.
  9. I have read Mud Blood etc. I have also read Shot at Dawn. This gives examples where men were clearly psychiatric cases but doctors did not confirm this.
  10. I have been to Gallipoli. Our Regt lost far too many good men there. To walk from the beaches up into the hills and to spend a moment in silence at the Cemeteries made it a very moving and inspiring visit. The land has a presence and a soul, Gallipoli had far more effect on me than the Somme.

    I think in an era where we are all individuals and the collective is secondary, it is not surprising that few are prepared to do anything. Human Rights may well achieve what the Kaiser and Hitler failed to, destroy Albion.
  11. Galipoli
    The Lancashire Landing
    6 VCs before breakfast
    Mi old grand da taught me that, mind you he was a regular in 1914.
  12. I only know about Dyett from reading MB&P so I can't really say much on that matter. The DLI Sgt who was executed I know more about, and I'm firmly with the CM on his case. 'The officer sent me off to get help' and 'I blocked the trench with my rifle to stop the Germans following me' are not statements that have the ring of truth to them.

    Set in the context of the times the punishments carried out were not excessive and there is little contemporary complaint, though much sympathy that there but for the grace of God etc. The whole thing has become an issue because some people many years after the events have choosen to write books and plays applying the standards of a differant time. Most of those authors have little concept of life in the military today, never mind the world and army of which they write.

    Redcaps point was that Officers would get a nice comfy billet whilst the lads would be shot. My point is that the figures do not bear out his assertion. I could add the cheapshot that since when has the RMP ever bothered to check the evidence, but that would be both unkind and untrue.
  13. I fully agree with Mushrooms post, IMHO Shot at Dawn leaves certain facts out of many of the case's and has some glaring errors, especially in the case of Sub Lt Dyett.
  14. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    I went on the 2 Med Bde Battlefield Tour in Nov 03. Very interesting. Vey moving. The Turks are quite onside. This is what thier President said in 1934:

    "Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives...! You are now lying in the soul of a friendly country, therefore rest in peace. There is no differences between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours...
    You, the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having
    lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."

    ATATURK, (1934).

    Its quoted on a lot of memorials that they have put up. I recomend going!

    Where they a different breed? I don't know, but its certainly true that by the 39 - 45 War we were not prepared to do what had been done on 20+ years before.
  15. Mushroom
    I can live with cheap shot. Generalisations are quite frequently wrong. My fault really - I got misled into off topic re punishment of the few when I wanted to mark the gallantry and spirit of the majority.