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Gallipoli - The Myth - BUSTED!!!

#1
Moved here by popular demand.....

'Few Australians realise that 'the British, French and Indian casualties were far greater than those of the Anzacs, and that the British bore the brunt of the fighting - and the losses.'

How about a new thread started to rip that Mel Gibson a new ARRSE Hole about the truth behind Gallipoli and that t**t of a film that all Ozzies believe to be the truth and nothing but!

Gallipoli Myths 1

Gallipoli Myths 2



Contrary to the belief of almost every Ozzie and Kiwi that it was only ANZACS unscrupulously sent into Gallipoli by the Brits (I experienced the utter contempt the majority of Ozzies have for the Brits on their ANZAC Day, when through sheer ignorance of the facts they use that day also as a kind of Anti-British Day!!!) :-

The British had contributed 468,000 in the battle for Gallipoli with 33,512 killed. 7,636 missing and 78,000 wounded. The French were next most numerous in total numbers and in casualties. The Anzacs lost 8,000 men in Gallipoli and a further 18,000 were wounded.

Moved across:-

I worked with several Ozzies on a State Dept Contract in Eye-Rak in 2006, they celebrated their ANZAC Day (it's their equivalent of our Remembrance Sunday as far as I can tell) and all their info seemed to be out of the Gallipoli film that Gibshite played a role in, not knowing the facts about the conflict and after being made to feel a right prick just by being British! I decided to check the facts online, I was gob smacked to find out we had lost 5 times as many men as the ANZACS! when I mentioned this to them they refused to believe me as they had been brought up under the pretence that the ANZACS alone had been jacked on and sent to Gallipoli by the cowardly Brits and the few Brits who were there (a slack handful according to them!) would drink tea while the ANZACS were sent forward by the British Commanders!!! Feking amazing how one film can brainwash two entire nations! anyone who ever gets the same treatment on ANZAC Day by an Aussie or Kiwi in future just tell them the little known fact they lost 8,000 men, the Brits lost over 41,000! don't get me wrong, I do like the Aussies, bloody good blokes almost to a man but the pricks among them do tend to emerge each ANZAC Day...
 
#2
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
 
#3
This fact has been known (but not well publicised) for a long time - the Lancashire Fusiliers were all but wiped out when they were dropped off from their landing ships onto gangplanks into the teeth of Turkish machine gun fire.

I was led to believe for a long time that it was an ANZAC only operation, it came as a complete surprise to learn about the high British casualties. Unfortunately, security was so poor that it was common knowledge in Britain that a big operation was going to take place in the Dardenelles (the General in charge left the plans on a train, I believe) and whatever else you may think about the Germans, they are not stupid.

Still, 35,000 British dead, and the French even more (French generals were always more stupid and careless of life than ours were), it's nothing to brag about, is it.
 
#4
The_Fudger said:
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
Except Mel Gibson had nothing to do with writing or directing The Patriot. Same goes for Gallipoli. He just acted in those films.
 
#5
Having been to Galipolli, I was struck by the amount of graves from Britain and other Empire troops, however, before jumping onto any bandwaggons, please consider that 8,000 dead is quite a big deal for a small country, population wise such as Australia and New Zealand. Galipolli is also seen as a 'Coming of Age' experiance for the two countries.

Australia only formed 5 infantry divisions for overseas service, put that against the total Britain raised and sent overseas.
 
#6
I must admit to not knowing enough about Gallipoli, but my old man does. He basically says the same as you - that the figures are rarely quoted accurately and that thousands of British lives were lost as a result of diversionary actions in order that the ANZACS could carry out their own operations relatively unmolested and that the total of British fatalities was far in excess of the ANZACS. As far as he recalls, the British suffered around 21000 fatalities (41000...?? - I'm not sure about that) to around 10000 ANZAC deaths.

As I say, I don't know enough but my old man is adamant that the losses of the British are always under-reported in favour of the ANZACS. It may well be a bit churlish to raise the point all these years later, but I'm sure that those British who fell would like the facts to be reported and represented accurately.

At the end of the day, Gallipoli was a disaster from start to finish from what I can see and achieved almost nothing of value to the war effort, and that’s maybe the saddest fact of all.
 
#7
ronnie12398 said:
The_Fudger said:
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
Except Mel Gibson had nothing to do with writing or directing The Patriot. Same goes for Gallipoli. He just acted in those films.
He's still a git and just for Braveheart I think he should banned from England for life.
 
#8
There were higher Australian casualties in Flanders but they never seem to get a mention.
 
#9
ronnie12398 said:
The_Fudger said:
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
Except Mel Gibson had nothing to do with writing or directing The Patriot. Same goes for Gallipoli. He just acted in those films.
Nor did he make anti-semitic comments when arrested for drunk driving.

Oh - no he did do that.
 
#10
On the other side of the barricades, the Turks (who, not coincidentally, I quite like as a group of people) are brought up believing that Gallipoli was the be all and end all of their involvement in the war and, consequently, will tell you smilingly that they 'kicked our arrses' - conveniently forgetting the fact that we beat them in Syria, Palestine, Arabia etc and in doing so, destroyed the Ottoman Empire. But why let the facts get in the way, eh?

Am I the only one who feels that the blokes who died from all sides would be ashamed of the fact that their grandsons and great-grandsons are STILL bitching at each other over nationalistic myths, nearly a century later?
 
#11
Dilfor said:
ronnie12398 said:
The_Fudger said:
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
Except Mel Gibson had nothing to do with writing or directing The Patriot. Same goes for Gallipoli. He just acted in those films.
Nor did he make anti-semitic comments when arrested for drunk driving.

Oh - no he did do that.
I didn't say that, or even imply it.
 
#12
western said:
There were higher Australian casualties in Flanders but they never seem to get a mention.
Not being reported and being deliberately reported inaccurately are clearly not the same thing...

When exactly in Flanders by the way.....?? First Battle of Passchendaele ..??
 
#13
ronnie12398 said:
Dilfor said:
ronnie12398 said:
The_Fudger said:
How unlike Mel (I hate the English) Gibson to distort history and use it to show the British/English in a bad light! (Patriot, Braveheart etc)
Except Mel Gibson had nothing to do with writing or directing The Patriot. Same goes for Gallipoli. He just acted in those films.
Nor did he make anti-semitic comments when arrested for drunk driving.

Oh - no he did do that.
I didn't say that, or even imply it.
I know. I did. The bloke's a cnut.

Anyway, back to history.

It has been argued that the myth stemmed partly from the fact that the Australians believed that the unhealthy, stumpy, spotty youths the Brits send to fight in this campaign were very much the Z list of soldiery - rather than entirely representative of the children of the industrial cities of the UK at that time. This gave rise to the idea that the Empire was sacrificing brave, bronzed ANZACs in Turkey, but saving the cream of the British population for the Western Front.

That said, the colonials were all volunteers and, in terms of casualties as a percentage of population, New Zealand was one of the worst affected in the War, and certainly the worst in the Empire.

Like Canada, it seems right that Australia can gain a sense of nationhood from this time in history - they just don't need to do the whingeing victim thing.
 
#14
There as is usual are a number of books on this Subject. This one though is quite good

Book
 
#15
Lieutenant Colonel N.M. Brazier, commander of the 10th Light Horse Regiment, attempted to have the third wave cancelled, claiming that "the whole thing was nothing but bloody murder". He was unable to find Colonel Hughes and unable to persuade the Brigade Major, Colonel J.M. Antill, who believed the reports that marker flags had been sighted. This report of marker flags was subsequently confirmed in a Turkish article published after the war where it was stated by author who had been at the Nek that a couple men with a marker flag made it to the Turkish trench before being quickly killed. In that time they were able to raise the flag. Colonel J.M. Antill had not checked the scene to establish if it was of any purpose to send the next wave and issued the order for the third wave to proceed. The third wave "hopped the bags" and the assault came to a quick end. On this assault, many men launched themselves out of the trenches and tried to dive for cover, having performed their duty to attack but having no ambition to commit suicide. This explains the lower casualty rate for the 10th Light Horse Regiment. Finally Hughes called off the attack, but confusion in the fire trench led to some of the fourth wave going over.

A further consequence of the failure to call off the attack at the Nek was that a supporting attack by two companies of the Royal Welch Fusiliers was launched from the head of Monash Valley, between Russell's Top and Pope's Hill, against the "Chessboard" trenches. 65 casualties were incurred before the attack was aborted.

Col Anthill - Regular Australian Officer, not British Army.

Antill was born at Jarvisfield, Picton, New South Wales, the second surviving son of John Macquarie Antill (1822 – 1900) and Jessie Hassall Campbell (1834 – 1917). Antill was educated at Sydney Grammar where he served in the school cadet unit, and became a surveyor.

Antill joined the local militia in 1887. In 1889, he raised a squadron of mounted infantry in Picton. The squadron later became part of the New South Wales Mounted Rifles, the unit into which Antill was commissioned as a captain on 19 January 1889. The commander of the New South Wales military forces, Major General Edward Hutton, arranged for Antill to do a tour of duty with the British army in India in 1893, where he served with the 1st Battalion, Devonshire Regiment and the 2nd Dragoon Guards. On his return to Australia in 1894, Antill was commissioned into the state's regular forces as a captain.

In late 1899, Antill was promoted to the rank of Major and given command of 'A' Squadron of the New South Wales Mounted Rifles, 'A' Squadron was raised specially for service in the Boer War. Antill saw only limited action during the war, but he was present during the Battle of Paardeberg on 18 February 1900. Antill returned to Australia in January 1901, but returned to South Africa in March as second in command of the 2nd New South Wales Mounted Rifles, taking part in the capture of Potgier's convoy on the River Vaal. For service in South Africa, Antill was twice Mentioned in Despatches, was appointed a Companion of the Order of the Bath (CB) in 1901,[1] and was made a brevet lieutenant colonel.

From 1904 to 1906, Antill filled the position of aide de camp to the Governor General, Henry Northcote. After this, he retired from the army and returned to Picton. Antill returned to the Army in 1911 as Commandant of the Instructional Staff Schools.
 
#16
Santa_Sunday said:
western said:
There were higher Australian casualties in Flanders but they never seem to get a mention.
Not being reported and being deliberately reported inaccurately are clearly not the same thing...

When exactly in Flanders by the way.....?? First Battle of Passchendaele ..??
Fromelles
Pozieres - Mouquet Farm
Bapaume
Messines
Polygon Wood
3rd Ypres Passchendaele
Villers-Bretonneaux
Hamel
Mont St Quentin



TOTAL AUSTRALIAN CASUALTIES
IN WORLD WAR 1

Western Front battle casualties = 181,099
Total Western Front killed in action: = 46,319
Infantry battle casualties (Western Front) = 159,359
Artillery battle casualties (Western Front) = 12,832
Total gassed = 13,702

ARMY, killed in action (all theatres) = 51,098
Total non-fatal casualties = 129,319
Total army casualties = 180,417
Infantry percentage casualties = 79 % of embarkations
Artillery percentage casualties = 58 % of embarkations
Light Horse percentage casualties = 32 % of embarkations
 
#17
western said:
Santa_Sunday said:
western said:
There were higher Australian casualties in Flanders but they never seem to get a mention.
Not being reported and being deliberately reported inaccurately are clearly not the same thing...

When exactly in Flanders by the way.....?? First Battle of Passchendaele ..??
Fromelles
Pozieres - Mouquet Farm
Bapaume
Messines
Polygon Wood
3rd Ypres Passchendaele
Villers-Bretonneaux
Hamel
Mont St Quentin



TOTAL AUSTRALIAN CASUALTIES
IN WORLD WAR 1

Western Front battle casualties = 181,099
Total Western Front killed in action: = 46,319
Infantry battle casualties (Western Front) = 159,359
Artillery battle casualties (Western Front) = 12,832
Total gassed = 13,702

ARMY, killed in action (all theatres) = 51,098
Total non-fatal casualties = 129,319
Total army casualties = 180,417
Infantry percentage casualties = 79 % of embarkations
Artillery percentage casualties = 58 % of embarkations
Light Horse percentage casualties = 32 % of embarkations

Now that's what I call an in-depth answer, though clearly a cut and paste job.

All these figures are incredible, but, as I said, there is a rather obvious and unhealthy difference between not reporting (which is lazy) and deliberately misreporting (which some may say is verging on lying).

Cheers,

SS
 
#19
Interesting topic.

ANZAC Day in Gallipoli does tend to be taken over by the ANZACs. Its an important part of the national stories of both Australia and New Zealand and so its fittign that its their day.

However, its a shame that more Brits don't take the trouble to commemorate Gallipoli. Most of the locally organised tours of Gallipoli only vist the ANZAC bits. Thats largely because Aussies and Kiwis travel there in enough numbers to make an industry of ANZAC tours.

We always run a battlefield Tour to Gallipoli in September led by Christopher Newbould. Our tour visits Cape Helles and Suvla Bay, which aren't usually pats of locally orgaised tours. There are still places this year if you hurry! http://www.poppytravel.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=tourDetail&asset_id=1404)

We plan to take a Legion Pilgrimage to Gallipoli over ANZAC day in 2010, the 95th Anniversary of Gallipoli. This will be focused on paying our respects to British War dead buried or commemorated in Gallipoli.
 
#20
PS

Its also a bit of a shame that Brits haven't identified and recognised their Great War heroes in the same way the ANZACs do. This chap here deserves to be recognises as a British Army hero - as well as a Kiwi.


The Lord Freyberg

(General The Lord Freyberg VC GCMG KCB KBE DSO & 3 Bars K St J, MiD (5) 1st Baron Freyberg of Wellington in New Zealand and Munstead in the County of Surrey ) is best known as a commander of the Kiwi Division and Corps in The Second World War.

However, he was born in Britain and died in Windsor. He won his VC and many of his decorations and received many of his wounds wearing the uniforms of the Royal Navy and British Army. He served a full career after the Great War as an officer in I think The Manchester’s commanding the 1st Battalion in the early 1930s. He only joined the New Zealand Armed Forces in 1939.

If someone asks about leadership in the Great War its officers like Bernard Freyberg who should be used as an example of an outstanding British military Great War leader . His exploits are real boys own stuff. Swimming two miles ashore on a lone diversionary raid the night before the Cape Helles and ANZAC Cove landings ... Naval Lieutenant to Brigade commander in two years - at the age of 28! ... Wounded nine times... One of the few officers to command formations in both world wars...
 

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