Funeral Arrangements & Burials - Should Religious Needs take Precedence Before Others?

#1
I caught the gist of a news report yesterday where Jewish Religious Leaders were asking the Coroner at the St Pancras Court in London to prioritise funerals where it is requested by the bereaved. The Coroner, a Ms Hassell has so far refused to do so on the basis that the current practice of what she describes as the Cab Rank Rule or as I would call it, first come first served is the most equitable way to proceed in fairness to all bereaved families.

I'll stress here. Jewish Religious Leaders aren't specifying this should be applicable to just those following the Jewish faith. They have made clear that anybody should be able to request prioritisation of the procedures required to enable a funeral to take place sooner rather than later. I'm aware that followers of Islam have the same or very similar religious needs for getting their deceased into a permanent place of rest.

At my time of life, it's more funerals than anything else these days. I'm aware that after someone has passed away, it can easily take two or even three weeks for the funeral to be given a slot where a few years ago, a week or two weeks maximum was the usual timescale. A sign of the times I suppose because of fewer bureaucrats and a larger population in this day and age. What did surprise me was that I went to a Muslim funeral in outer West London just a few weeks ago and the deceased had died just a week before he was buried.

It may be that in some area's, religious wishes could be already being given a preferential timescale. I don't know but if you look at the matter from a perspective that we really are all the same particularly in death and that death is the final act of us all, should those who may need a quicker conclusion to a very sad occasion for religious reasons be given preference over those who don't have that religious requirement but who are just the same in terms of needing to be laid to rest.

Although this stems from the religious doctrine of those of Jewish faith and it will equally apply to those of Islamic faith, in my view, this isn't about religion and I'm not interested in blaming either of those religions because their doctrine specifies a conclusion sooner rather than later. It's solely about a relatively simple question. Should everybody get the same level of attention at the end of their lives or is it ok to give a right to those who want to ask for preferential arrangements for their recently departed?
 
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#2
Thou shall keep thy religion to thyself.
 
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#3
If / where public / local authority services are involved then nobody should be prioritised over anyone else.

Outside of that constraint then money speaks. Death has been commercialised to a degree and those that are prepared to pay more for a swifter service from private enterprises will get 'prioritised' over those less willing or able to pay. Money speaks, even in death.
 
#4
I caught the gist of a news report yesterday where Jewish Religious Leaders were asking the Coroner at the St Pancras Court in London to prioritise funerals where it is requested by the bereaved. The Coroner, a MS Hassell has so far refused to do so on the basis that the current practice of what she describes as the Cab Rank Rule or as I would call it, first come first served is the most equitable way to proceed in fairness to all bereaved families.

I'll stress here. Jewish Religious Leaders aren't specifying this should be applicable to just those following the Jewish faith. They have made clear that anybody should be able to request prioritisation of the procedures required to enable a funeral to take place sooner rather than later. I'm aware that followers of Islam have the same or very similar religious needs for getting their deceased into a permanent place of rest.

At my time of life, it's more funerals than anything else these days. I'm aware that after someone has passed away, it can easily take two or even three weeks for the funeral to be given a slot where a few years ago, a week or two weeks maximum was the usual timescale. A sign of the times I suppose because of fewer bureaucrats and a larger population in this day and age. What did surprise me was that I went to a Muslim funeral in outer West London just a few weeks ago and the deceased had died just a week before he was buried.

It may be that in some area's, religious wishes could be already being given a preferential timescale. I don't know but if you look at the matter from a perspective that we really are all the same particularly in death and that death is the final act of us all, should those who may need a quicker conclusion to a very sad occasion for religious reasons be given preference over those who don't have that religious requirement but who are just the same in need of being laid to rest.

Although this stems from the religious doctrine of those of Jewish faith and it will equally apply to those of Islamic faith, in my view, this isn't about religion and I'm not interested in blaming either of those religions because their doctrine specifies a conclusion sooner rather than later. It's about a relatively simple question. Should everybody get the same level of attention at the end of their lives or is it ok to give a right to those who want to ask for it for preferential arrangements?
I will request prioritisation upon my death for reasons of “wishing to nark off the religious lunatics”.
 
#5
Can't really be bothered about it, I'm more concerned about people in vulnerable state of mind being pressured into spending a lot of money on a funeral
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#6
Its the requirement for an autopsy that is the issue. If a suitable cadaver mechanic isn't available then all the bodies wait. If there is suspicion of foul play the fuzz will order one, this makes me wonder how many bodies are consigned by dodgy doctors signing the death certificates and keeping the authorities out of the loop? Perhaps there should be a correlation to the religious allegiance of the doctors and the deceased to remove any risk of collusion shal we say?
 
#7
It is not always a matter of getting a 'slot'. A member of my family died last year in hospital. Now I didn't know this before but as he died after an op without regaining consciousness the death had, by law, to be referred to the coroner for review. In this particular case the coroner specified a full PM and it was a matter of more than a month before this was completed and an interim report with 'cremation release' was obtained.

It would have helped if the High Dependency Unit where he died, who must have known the law, had not told us "Ring the Bereavement Office" (in the hospital) on Wednesday", which we did, to be told to ring the Coroner's Office "some time after next Monday", etc, etc.

I have no particular problem with specific religious requirements 'jumping the queue', I just dislike being jerked around.
 
#8
It would depend on where the bottleneck is.
I don't know, but would guess, that if where there is religious need for a rapid funeral (which tends to follow climatic conditions, e.g. hot countries) , then relevant arrangements will be in place.
My father died at the end of Jan and with the need to alert people and for them to travel (some from Australia ), we elected to have the funeral two weeks later.
If we had wanted the funeral earlier, even a couple of days after his death, there would have been no problem - it just needed the funeral director to be squared away on his paperwork, and for the church and vicar to be free which, on the whole, they are mid-week.
Chatting to the funeral director (slightly off thread - a good man who used to play for Ospreys), I learned the major bottleneck in the UK is getting a slot at the crem.
This presented us with no problem: in his wishes, my father had specified a church funeral service and the short committal (max 5mins) at the crem whenever it was possible .
So we had the church service on a Friday afternoon, the funeral director then took charge of the coffin until the following Monday when he had booked the first available slot (0900) at the crem.
The Vicar who took the service thought this was a great idea, because there was no tight deadline for the crem on the same afternoon.
Again, for reasons of family travel, we have postponed scattering the ashes until this coming weekend - in the meantime, the urn has been at the funeral director's.
In a sad coincidence , because of Good Friday and Easter weekend, the funeral director has said he has to deliver the urn to my mother on Thursday (29th) - the very day that would have been their 66th wedding anniversary.
 
#9
Okay.

Hypothetical situation: 3 different families from 3 different religions, or even just 3 different sects from the same religion, all request prioritization at the same time.

Inevitably one of them is going to be at the front of the queue.

Are people in general so sensible and fair minded that they'll absolutely never feel as if someone else's request being handled first was the result of preferential treatment?

I think if the answer to that was yes then this would be a non-issue and no one would be discussing prioritization at all.
 
#10
I had my fathers funeral last week.

He had been ill for a while so he pre-paid for a Co-op basic funeral with no frills (He didn't want any fuss)
Despite not paying for any extra's the funeral directors did their level best to meet our requirements and did everything asked of them
Because family was flying in from abroad and elderly siblings travelling from all across the country the job was done within the date and time range we asked for.

But you wait your turn. Every family organising a funeral wants it done in a particular way and at a particular time.
I gave the Co-op a list of preferable dates asked for a late afternoon slot at the crematorium. Thats exactly what they gave us. No requirement to pay a premium price, no prefferential treatment.

Every single family who has a funeral to arrange is a priority to themselves.
Pay your money, make your requests and stand in line. All coffins being equal and all that.
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
#11
when I was in the mob it was drummed into us ,not to kick dogs or children and to ensure that each man was able to observe his / her religious obedience's without let or hindrance . As long as religious people are not trying to force their views down my thoroat I dont care how many of 'em get buried before me ..... I aint in any hurry .
 

MoleBath

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#12
Perhaps the bottleneck could be addressed by longer opening hours at crematoria with shift working. Would allow better productivity and early evening funerals might be easier to get to for working age mourners. No doubt local authority unions would shy away from any such idea
 

Raven2008

On ROPS
On ROPs
#13
Its the requirement for an autopsy that is the issue. If a suitable cadaver mechanic isn't available then all the bodies wait. If there is suspicion of foul play the fuzz will order one, this makes me wonder how many bodies are consigned by dodgy doctors signing the death certificates and keeping the authorities out of the loop? Perhaps there should be a correlation to the religious allegiance of the doctors and the deceased to remove any risk of collusion shal we say?
Didn't one such quack do that :D practice for decades - subsequent comsumpation into the fire via falsifying last will requests etc etc.

In fact happened to a mate's ex bf father albeit in South or West Africa. Basically her ex's father was quite wealthy married a visiting well to do lass up in his neck of the woods in Germany. Alls well till they relocated to her neck of the woods...then he drops dead, leaves everything to the now widow and her family....they conveniently asked for the commitment by fire, with no autopsy. Case closed

My mate tells me her ex with his mother and sibblings raised holy hell because there was no PM, they suspected one of those African tribal poison darts...problem is the amount of red ******* tape, diplomatic etc etc, and no Interpol cop or GSG-9 presence to head there, itnerview witnesses, the family etc. All they have is a pile of ashes and bona fide will leaving his empire to the second wife and her tribe....and not to my mate's ex bf family. Apparently originally , even though the divorce ...there would be some dosh left to the kids.

TBH the dodgy quack thing is more prevalant in the states, its better if you're the pathologist whose committed said sin and very nice of him to sign off his wife's cert, get her shipped to the Real Fun home, then everyone gets to work on replacing the vital fluids including of course blood with the milky stuff thus no trace. Did not quite work out in his favour.

Examiner's Murder Case Becomes a Tangled Tale

Former Medical Examiner Dr. William Sybers Dies at 81

Cheers
 

Attachments

#14
Didn't one such quack do that :D practice for decades - subsequent comsumpation into the fire via falsifying last will requests etc etc.

In fact happened to a mate's ex bf father albeit in South or West Africa. Basically her ex's father was quite wealthy married a visiting well to do lass up in his neck of the woods in Germany. Alls well till they relocated to her neck of the woods...then he drops dead, leaves everything to the now widow and her family....they conveniently asked for the commitment by fire, with no autopsy. Case closed

My mate tells me her ex with his mother and sibblings raised holy hell because there was no PM, they suspected one of those African tribal poison darts...problem is the amount of red ******* tape, diplomatic etc etc, and no Interpol cop or GSG-9 presence to head there, itnerview witnesses, the family etc. All they have is a pile of ashes and bona fide will leaving his empire to the second wife and her tribe....and not to my mate's ex bf family. Apparently originally , even though the divorce ...there would be some dosh left to the kids.

TBH the dodgy quack thing is more prevalant in the states, its better if you're the pathologist whose committed said sin and very nice of him to sign off his wife's cert, get her shipped to the Real Fun home, then everyone gets to work on replacing the vital fluids including of course blood with the milky stuff thus no trace. Did not quite work out in his favour.

Examiner's Murder Case Becomes a Tangled Tale

Former Medical Examiner Dr. William Sybers Dies at 81

Cheers
You liar, that's woopert not Shipman.
 
#16
It’s allways been my impression that the dead have other priorities...like what now???

Did I get the right one?.(..religion that is.)

Dark in here.

No. Religious preference be buggered. Get in line like everyone else.
 
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#17
It’s allways been my impression that the dead have other priorities...like what now???

Did I get the right one?.(..religion that is.)

Dark in here.

No. Religious preference be buggered. Get in line line everyone else.
Admit it; you've been on the falling down water again, haven't you?

:razz:
 
#18
Well, as a retired lawyer I would hope (and suspect) that the coroner or medical examiner would give priority to cases that are believe to be foul play. The police really need the details as to type of poison, type of gun or knife, and want to get DNA swabs to process to assist in the investigation.
An additional glitch for families can be to have death declared so the body can be moved. For years in my US state (Massachusetts) a medical examiner or an MD have to certify death . Not a problem if uncle Arthur passes away in a hospital. It can be a problem if uncle Arthur is lying dead in the middle of the kitchen floor. They finally have allowed a paramedic to declare the person dead so the funeral service can remove the body.

It gets really unpleasant if a family is fighting about details. One of my clients died at home. He was 50ish, obese, diabetic ,had high blood pressure and a history of heart problems. Once poor Charlie was at the funeral home warfare started. The brother who was on the outs with the rest of the family called the medical examiner saying he has suspicions but the ME talked with Charlie's doctor and said he had no interest in doing a post mortem exam. The difficult brother then had a lawyer call the funeral home demanding no embalming as he was getting a private hire pathologist to examine the body. It ended up with poor Charlie being held in the funeral home for a week, un-embalmed while the family fought. The poor funeral director was beside herself. Contrary to what you see on TV most funeral homes do not have morgue fridges as bodies are usually embalmed as soon as they get to the funeral home. She had to keep Charlie in the embalming room with the air conditioning on maximum which helped a bit but did not keep the poor man from getting riper. The rest of the family was upset as they just wanted to bury their brother. Horrible for them, the funeral director and aggravating for me.
Funny thing,after we got Charlie buried, the bad brother had his lawyer produce a dubious document claiming the deceased had sold all his (50 odd) guns to him. When the police had arrived for Charlies death they had taken all the guns to the police vault for safekeeping. I cheerfully told his lawyer that I would have the guns delivered as soon as bad brother produced a Federal ATF form 4473 for each of the guns as required by law. Since there were no forms he got no guns. As the good brother had Maine licenses and not Massachusetts and I have a Massachusetts large capacity license, I went with the good brother to the police station to pick up the guns, filled my clients truck with guns and we drove to Maine to put the guns in the clients safe, after we had done a bit of target shooting. (never fired a .458WinMag before. it kicks!!) and a nice lobster dinner from my client on the way home.
(in case you are wondering I did not charge my client for the fight to get Charlie buried or for the road trip to Maine)
 
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#20
I had my fathers funeral last week.

He had been ill for a while so he pre-paid for a Co-op basic funeral with no frills (He didn't want any fuss)
Despite not paying for any extra's the funeral directors did their level best to meet our requirements and did everything asked of them
Because family was flying in from abroad and elderly siblings travelling from all across the country the job was done within the date and time range we asked for.

But you wait your turn. Every family organising a funeral wants it done in a particular way and at a particular time.
I gave the Co-op a list of preferable dates asked for a late afternoon slot at the crematorium. Thats exactly what they gave us. No requirement to pay a premium price, no prefferential treatment.

Every single family who has a funeral to arrange is a priority to themselves.
Pay your money, make your requests and stand in line. All coffins being equal and all that.

A Co-Op funeral.....?

Is that where you turn up for the funeral, there's 5 freshly dug holes in front of you, a couple of dozen people milling around waiting for something to happen and no-one available to do the planting or is that just how they run their crappy stores?
 

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