FRES 2: The Revenge aka MIV

Take a turret-less Fox or Vixen and stick an MMS on it and you've basically got the Fennek.
Arrrgh!! . . . . . :( .

Just what I referred to earlier ( . . . that I had seen “butchered” at Withams).
1560856122678.png

". . . these turretless one were at Ludgershall 1995. I assume the turrets went onto Scorpions to make them into Sabres".
photo cvr(W) vixen - Google Search:
Fox CVR(W) in N.I.

Does anyone know what did happen to these . . . ?!

By removing the top-heavy turret, what was left was a “good idea”, staring everyone in the face, just waiting to be developed . . .

Although I am sure we could make it look a lot more attractive than this ;) . . .

1560856359394.png
 
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"See before being seen."

That said, cancelling the overwatch version was errant and dangerous nonsense.

The CVR(T) family was very well-considered in terms of the roles to be undertaken and the variants needed. AJAX is rather less so.

You had robust overwatch versions with CVR(T) because the people designing and overseeing its entry into service has recent and bitter experience of what happens when light armour with pop guns go ahead of the heavies looking for information.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
You had robust overwatch versions with CVR(T) because the people designing and overseeing its entry into service has recent and bitter experience of what happens when light armour with pop guns go ahead of the heavies looking for information.
...whereas now we have accountants.
 
AS90 took our FH-70s and stuck them in a self-propelled chassis. At the time we got it, it outperformed the M109. That we failed to upgrade it, principally with the longer barrel, is our fault, not that of the basic design. Viz. CR2; we let stuff wither on the vine.
I would humbly suggest that AS90 is beyond upgrade now...
 

Resurgam

War Hero
Feck - I'm almost in love.

XM395 - GPS guided, accurate to 5m at 7k.

There is sooo much 120mm in service out there, I have to ask the question why has the UK never looked at it and remained shackled to light gun?

Is this a dropshort/cap badge thing?
My Commandants paper at Camberley was on a 120mm mortar MLRS mix removing the 155 and 105 from the arty. Was initially supported by RA DS but when they looked at the conclusions they were not happy. Not sure why as my old man was a gunner and he commanded a 4.2inch mortar battery at one time or so I believe. It was also used at Imjin river by 170 Battery. There was a precedence for Gunner Mortars but they did not like the idea. Daft really
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
“.....US M109 L/52....”

Uh, didn’t we flog off all our M109s to the Austrians who upgraded them and recently sold them on the Latvia (?) and replaced them with that great commercial non success AS90 soon to be gas axed en mass?

Yet again, MOD plays back to the future.
AS90 really requires the Braveheart Turret with L52 which we sold to the Poles (120 of them), but didn't adopt ourselves because of ammunition production issues. I understand there were some unwanted nastiness in the propellent.

AS90, like Warrior, failed on the export market because of it's price (Warrior 2000 in the Swiss trials outperformed all the competitors, incl CV90, it lost because it was far too expensive), not it's capability.

The only significant complaint I've heard about AS90 in UK service is the L39 lacks range, other than that and cost it holds its own vs PzH2000 and M109
 
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My Commandants paper at Camberley was on a 120mm mortar MLRS mix removing the 155 and 105 from the arty. Was initially supported by RA DS but when they looked at the conclusions they were not happy. Not sure why as my old man was a gunner and he commanded a 4.2inch mortar battery at one time or so I believe. It was also used at Imjin river by 170 Battery. There was a precedence for Gunner Mortars but they did not like the idea. Daft really
Just call them 120mm smooth-bore artillery instead of mortars. Problem solved. :lol:
 

Majorpain

War Hero
Yup...

We could have bought them back for pennies and ended up with fairly bang up to date SPGs

UPDATED: Latvia to buy Austrian howitzers
M109's are the past, not the future. K9 does look very tasty, the South Koreans with their neighbours to the North have a big incentive to have good kit.

I would humbly suggest that AS90 is beyond upgrade now...
The solution to CR2 was to stick an enhanced leopard 2 Turret on it.
The solution to AS90 is to stick a Pz2000/K9 Turret on it.

Ok, it may not fit! But im willing to bet no-one has got a tape measure out and looked yet....
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
M109's are the past, not the future. K9 does look very tasty, the South Koreans with their neighbours to the North have a big incentive to have good kit.



The solution to CR2 was to stick an enhanced leopard 2 Turret on it.
The solution to AS90 is to stick a Pz2000/K9 Turret on it.

Ok, it may not fit! But im willing to bet no-one has got a tape measure out and looked yet....
Well as the AS90 Braveheart Turret Fits the K9 Chassis....
 
M109's are the past, not the future. K9 does look very tasty, the South Koreans with their neighbours to the North have a big incentive to have good kit.



The solution to CR2 was to stick an enhanced leopard 2 Turret on it.
The solution to AS90 is to stick a Pz2000/K9 Turret on it.

Ok, it may not fit! But im willing to bet no-one has got a tape measure out and looked yet....
With all the work that you would have to do to the hull, it would be cheaper (and easier) to buy a new platform.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
Well as the AS90 Braveheart Turret Fits the K9 Chassis....
I hadn't actually noticed before, but K9's and AS90's hulls look (suspiciously) similar. If its the same base hull it would not be a big surprise if the turrets fit each other! It really cant be that simple though??!!!

With all the work that you would have to do to the hull, it would be cheaper (and easier) to buy a new platform.
I hear what your saying, but im not convinced. Especially with the way the CR2 program looks like it going.
 

bill121koln

Old-Salt
Arrrgh!! . . . . . :( .

Just what I referred to earlier ( . . . that I had seen “butchered” at Withams).
View attachment 399385
". . . these turretless one were at Ludgershall 1995. I assume the turrets went onto Scorpions to make them into Sabres".
photo cvr(W) vixen - Google Search:
Fox CVR(W) in N.I.

Does anyone know what did happen to these . . . ?!

By removing the top-heavy turret, what was left was a “good idea”, staring everyone in the face, just waiting to be developed . . .

Although I am sure we could make it look a lot more attractive than this ;) . . .

View attachment 399386
Stick a ferret turret on top, it'd look a damn site better.
 
Arrrgh!! . . . . . :( .

Just what I referred to earlier ( . . . that I had seen “butchered” at Withams).
View attachment 399385
". . . these turretless one were at Ludgershall 1995. I assume the turrets went onto Scorpions to make them into Sabres".
photo cvr(W) vixen - Google Search:
Fox CVR(W) in N.I.

Does anyone know what did happen to these . . . ?!

By removing the top-heavy turret, what was left was a “good idea”, staring everyone in the face, just waiting to be developed . . .

Although I am sure we could make it look a lot more attractive than this ;) . . .

View attachment 399386
Do you mean.....like this?

ferret.jpg
 
Sod it. Let’s have direct fire (120mm should do it), indirect fire (missiles plus 120mm mortar), smoke, chaff, sharks with lasers, attack dogs, a helipad, tea room, tennis court and soft furnishing/break-out area. 1,000t GVW do you?

Nowhere is the need to defend being dismissed. What should be being dismissed is the very small number of occasions on which a reconnaissance vehicle would have to engage at a high off-axis angle versus the very real advantages of an MMS. The vision systems even without an MMS will likely far outrange the effective range of the main gun, even 40mm CTA, and especially if engaging AFVs - and not just heavy armour.

Which bit of ‘an’ asset not ‘the’ asset is being missed here? It’s all getting a bit World of Tanks.

Want an indirect-fire option? Call the artillery or the air force. Want a direct-fire option? Call in the armour boys and girls. Want to watch and report in greater safety? Then do it from a distance or from on high.

Reconnaissance. Your main weapons are your sensor systems and comms links.
World of Tanks....

ISWYDT.
 
M109's are the past, not the future. K9 does look very tasty, the South Koreans with their neighbours to the North have a big incentive to have good kit.



The solution to CR2 was to stick an enhanced leopard 2 Turret on it.
The solution to AS90 is to stick a Pz2000/K9 Turret on it.

Ok, it may not fit! But im willing to bet no-one has got a tape measure out and looked yet....
M109’s are the still in large scale series production by a builder and primary user with very deep pockets keeping it up to bang up to date. The M109A7 is light years ahead of the AS90.

MOD needs to stop reinventing the wheel it’s already got in service. It’s old M109’s could have been incrementally upgraded just like the Austrians did with all the ex British ones it bought and still been fully combat worthy.

And now? The AS90 wunderwaffe that replaced the old M109’s have an appointment with the gas axe and new M109’s are in the frame - and MOD wonders why it’s always broke?
 
except the cruel lesson learned is that when you send light recce off to go find the enemy, you often find the enemy’s tanks, and your sturdy Boys anti tank rifle looked a bit silly when you did. See armoured cars quickly joins the gun race and finishing WWII with 56mm and and even 75 mm guns.


Ditto ‘light’ tanks used for reconnaissance, by wars end, even the British were using this sturdy little chap with a butch 75mm gun instead of things armed with a 37/40mm pop gun.

View attachment 399322
The problem with recce by fire with MBTs is that you are even more readily discovered and engaged then drawn into a battle that then requires reinforcement etc, because...you've got MBTs engaged right?

Perhaps the early German WW2 solution should be re-examined:

mc combi.jpg
 
How many casemate guns are still in service though?


I think the biggest problem with obstructing the traverse of the turret isn't the blind spot, but of you can't get past it you have to go the long way around, which will seriously impede your ability to track targets or change arcs or get the gun barrel out the way of hitting things.

More a case to put it on the turret than the hull.
Ever heard of a neutral turn?
 
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