FRES 2: The Revenge aka MIV

A division with just 2 Armd inf Bdes
I'm sure most people would prefer a Armoured Division and a Strike Division but the money just isn't there.

Hopefully with the current political climate we will maintain a full Armoured Divison...

More likely is making up new roles to maintain capbadges though.
 
I doubt that. A slender mast and a faceted head will show far less than a bloody great AFV.

Our various pre-FRES studies included MMSs, and the ASCOD, on which AJAX is based, has an MMS-equipped version.

Speed into action? You can look from far farther away with an MMS, which means that you don’t necessarily need to get away as quickly.

I err towards the idea that we’d wasted so much bloody time and money that AJAX is the baby of, “Get something, anything, into service.”
There exists one other possible reason. If the mast were hull mounted, would it interfere with the 40mm gun traverse ?
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
There exists one other possible reason. If the mast were hull mounted, would it interfere with the 40mm gun traverse ?
Only if the target stood behind it whilst deployed
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
What if you backed into location so you're best placed for a fast getaway ?
The problem remains that when the mast is deployed you can't fully traverse the gun, so you have a blind spot in your firing arcs, it might just be a degree or so, but that adds up the further away from the vehicle you are so the blind spot at 500m away is a lot bigger than the blind spot 10m away, (don't ask me to make any calculations), Now your opposition will have done his homework and discovered this, mainly from the shiny press photos and videos you released 4 years ago, they will have factored that blind spot in an can say, if you can get into this position to fire then he can't stop you, even if he sees you in time because he has stow the mast or move out of position (could turn the whole vehicle on the spot though)
 
I know the Canadians had Coyote with a 10m mast, which by all accounts did the job. I did hear though that the time quoted to set up/tear down was 20-30 minutes and they were seeking to improve this with a new system.
 
The problem remains that when the mast is deployed you can't fully traverse the gun, so you have a blind spot in your firing arcs, it might just be a degree or so, but that adds up the further away from the vehicle you are so the blind spot at 500m away is a lot bigger than the blind spot 10m away, (don't ask me to make any calculations), Now your opposition will have done his homework and discovered this, mainly from the shiny press photos and videos you released 4 years ago, they will have factored that blind spot in an can say, if you can get into this position to fire then he can't stop you, even if he sees you in time because he has stow the mast or move out of position (could turn the whole vehicle on the spot though)
Do you honestly see that as a justification for not having an MMS on a recce vehicle?

500m? Keep going. With modern optics plus elevation, you can put your vehicle a very great distance away from many, many adversaries’ lethality range. You can hide behind buildings, topological features, whole forests... AND simply not be seen yourself in the first place.

Nah. £££££££...
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Do you honestly see that as a justification for not having an MMS on a recce vehicle?

500m? Keep going. With modern optics plus elevation, you can put your vehicle a very great distance away from many, many adversaries’ lethality range. You can hide behind buildings, topological features, whole forests... AND simply not be seen yourself in the first place.

Nah. £££££££...
No I see it as justification for not attaching the MMS to the hull, slap it on the turret instead
 
T
No I see it as justification for not attaching the MMS to the hull, slap it on the turret instead
I assume the masts are telescopic pneumatic masts, similar to those used in mobile microwave transmitter units for years?

The problem with that is the stowed mast occupies quite a bit of space below deck when it’s not deployed (and the base section always remains in place).

I’m not sure if a 15-20cm diameter vertical tube going through the centreline of your turret is going to be a positive ergonomic factor...
 
T


I assume the masts are telescopic pneumatic masts, similar to those used in mobile microwave transmitter units for years?

The problem with that is the stowed mast occupies quite a bit of space below deck when it’s not deployed (and the base section always remains in place).

I’m not sure if a 15-20cm diameter vertical tube going through the centreline of your turret is going to be a positive ergonomic factor...
And one begins to see a reason as to why masts arent fitted

Perhaps sticking them on the APC hulls or perhaps on JLTV would be the better solution
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
T


I assume the masts are telescopic pneumatic masts, similar to those used in mobile microwave transmitter units for years?

The problem with that is the stowed mast occupies quite a bit of space below deck when it’s not deployed (and the base section always remains in place).

I’m not sure if a 15-20cm diameter vertical tube going through the centreline of your turret is going to be a positive ergonomic factor...
Will-Burt Stilletto Telescoping Mast installed on 2 Man Turret on a Textron MSV, aft starboard quarter of the turret, more images in links


Will Burt Mobile Surveillance - Desert Wolf

Mobile Survivable Vehicle - New Siblings Expand the ASV Family


1c0ae2205709722b62e843abc0471a55_XL.jpg
 
And one begins to see a reason as to why masts arent fitted

Perhaps sticking them on the APC hulls or perhaps on JLTV would be the better solution
With an opening declaration that I have zero experience of amoured anything, but extensive use of pneumatic masts...

Well I can understand why they aren't fitted to the turret - it would create limitations on working space in the turret, and also on traversing the turret while the mast is deployed. Keeping the sensor head pointing in one direction, while the turret is moving in another, creates a new level of complexity.

Mounting a mast in the hull behind the turret would seem the sensible solution.

Edited to add that Rampants post above makes this post obsolete and factually incorrect :)
 
Will-Burt Stilletto Telescoping Mast installed on 2 Man Turret on a Textron MSV, aft starboard quarter of the turret, more images in links


Will Burt Mobile Surveillance - Desert Wolf

Mobile Survivable Vehicle - New Siblings Expand the ASV Family


View attachment 399085
I stand firmly corrected.

All of the Will-Burt masts I have used had much longer individual sections, and a much larger internal footprint.

That's teach me to go into Photex mode, on a subject I know nothing about...
 
Well I can understand why they aren't fitted to the turret - it would create limitations on working space in the turret, and also on traversing the turret while the mast is deployed. Keeping the sensor head pointing in one direction, while the turret is moving in another, creates a new level of complexity.
The technology to keep the sensor pointing in any given direction already exists in remote weapon systems, panoramic sights and any stabilised turret.
 
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