FRES 2: The Revenge aka MIV

As far as I know there is no talk about being able to regenerate a 2nd Division.

There will be a 2nd division in name but it is more of less all the forces that are left over after filling the fighting division (regional forces, Cyprus, LONDIST, etc etc)
Project HENRY WILSON...ie how to reconstitute 1 Div as deployable - albeit at extended readiness.


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As far as I know there is no talk about being able to regenerate a 2nd Division.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmdfence/108/108.pdf

"The MoD is now providing us with six monthly updates on regeneration and reconstitution. In its October 2016 update, the MoD stated that the Army had been directed to explore the optimal regeneration and reconstitution framework to deliver a second Division.

"66. We are concerned about the lack of detail on how the MoD could regenerate a warfighting division or reconstitute a greater force in the face of significant strategic challenges. In its response to our Report, we ask the MoD to confirm when the work to improve the mechanism for tracking, recalling and retraining the Regular Reserve will be completed. We also ask that the MoD set out the timetable for the completion of the work exploring the optimal regeneration and reconstitution framework necessary to deliver a capable second division. We are also concerned that there is no systematic strategy linking these two pieces of work. We therefore recommend that the MoD includes in its promised six-monthly updates on regeneration and reconstitution details on how the Army is fulfilling both ambitions. "
 
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmdfence/108/108.pdf


"66. .... We also ask that the MoD set out the timetable for the completion of the work exploring the optimal regeneration and reconstitution framework necessary to deliver a capable second division. "
Ok well combat capable formations your going to have:
2 x Armd Inf Bde
2 x Strike Bde
1 x Air Aslt Bde
1 x Cdo Bde

So really you would have the capability to possibly field 2 Divisions but one will be very much lighter and different capabilities than the other.

Apart from the fact that all have (comparatively) few infantry. The 2nd division will have little Combat Support or Combat Service Support at Div level.

In fairness, there be relatively few occasions where a whole division is likely to be deployed (even less for 2 divisions). And for each a fair few reserves will be required especially on the logs side. That makes sense due to the few occasions it is likely to deploy.

But this sounds very much like Parliament wanting something the Government can’t/won’t resource
 
Ok well combat capable formations your going to have:
2 x Armd Inf Bde
2 x Strike Bde
1 x Air Aslt Bde
1 x Cdo Bde

So really you would have the capability to possibly field 2 Divisions but one will be very much lighter and different capabilities than the other.

Apart from the fact that all have (comparatively) few infantry. The 2nd division will have little Combat Support or Combat Service Support at Div level.

In fairness, there be relatively few occasions where a whole division is likely to be deployed (even less for 2 divisions). And for each a fair few reserves will be required especially on the logs side. That makes sense due to the few occasions it is likely to deploy.

But this sounds very much like Parliament wanting something the Government can’t/won’t resource
By regeneration they mean if you have used 3 Div in war it will be severely damaged and depleted so you need to rebuild a 'second' division.

As there is pitifully little armour and artillery, probably insufficient for 3 Div needs, regeneration will be a real challenge.
 
Obviously not for deployment in NI then. More seriously where could it be deployed, and what could it in theory do.
I couldn’t really imagine it as a war fighting Div HQ - but potentially as a deployable land component HQ in the context of a stabilisation operation. There are lots of scenarios - especially in a coalition where you will have a plethora of Nations under command - where you might want a deployed 2* HQ without fixing your war fighting div for 12 months at a time.


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Interesting that later on he posts about us following the French idea of using it in the armoured infantry role and replacing warrior.

Doubt this would happen after spending ~£1B upgrading warrior, but I suppose the MOD has done similar.

Reading the comments someone states they are lobbying the government for a strike division. 3xMech inf, 1xReece, 1xartillery per brigade, 3x Brigades. I cannot see the MOD being able to fund:
2xAI Briagdes
3xstrike
16AA
3Cdo
Plus the allsortment of units in 1Div.
Would be nice, but I imagine it's hopes a d dreams at best.
 
I couldn’t really imagine it as a war fighting Div HQ - but potentially as a deployable land component HQ in the context of a stabilisation operation. There are lots of scenarios - especially in a coalition where you will have a plethora of Nations under command - where you might want a deployed 2* HQ without fixing your war fighting div for 12 months at a time.
Sorry, I thought we were deploying troops not just VSOs. Still maybe that's the answer, we provide the brass hats others provide the men to do the actual fighting/work. we could also bill that as 'punching above our weight'.
 
Sorry, I thought we were deploying troops not just VSOs. Still maybe that's the answer, we provide the brass hats others provide the men to do the actual fighting/work. we could also bill that as 'punching above our weight'.
MND(SE) definitely included British troops - just not a full war fighting division of them.

Again, there are plenty of stabilisation scenarios in which you might see a deployed U.K. Div HQ containing a U.K. Lt Bde, plus one or two other Allied Bdes.


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ugly

LE
Moderator
I expect they believe the follow up division will be full of happy and willing reservists, the only problem is it usually takes twenty or so years for the memories to fade enough and the good times blot out the sh1t ones!
 
By regeneration they mean if you have used 3 Div in war it will be severely damaged and depleted so you need to rebuild a 'second' division.

As there is pitifully little armour and artillery, probably insufficient for 3 Div needs, regeneration will be a real challenge.
@irlsgt what are you disagreeing with?

Here is an extract from a speech given by The Rt Hon Mark Lancaster TD MP, Minister of State for the Armed Forces at the RUSI Land Warfare Conference in June this year. Minister Armed Forces Keynote Address

" So, under the Modernising Defence Programme we’re looking carefully at our Reserve Forces, with the aim of enhancing national resilience by giving our Armed Forces even more flexibility. As part of that work, we will be testing our arrangements for mobilising large numbers of Reserves. But the need for agility goes beyond the work we do with Reservists and it must be about more than just a single Division.

It is also about the enablers from across the Army, without which the Division would be unable to function. Furthermore, our resilience is founded on our ability to generate a second, follow-on Division to meet the NATO demand signal providing vital wide-area security and stabilisation. "
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
It is also about the enablers from across the Army, without which the Division would be unable to function. Furthermore, our resilience is founded on our ability to generate a second, follow-on Division to meet the NATO demand signal providing vital wide-area security and stabilisation. "
Good luck with that, provided you are happy for the division to be filled with fifty year olds who did three years 30 years ago then you may have a chance.
 
@irlsgt what are you disagreeing with?

Here is an extract from a speech given by The Rt Hon Mark Lancaster TD MP, Minister of State for the Armed Forces at the RUSI Land Warfare Conference in June this year. Minister Armed Forces Keynote Address

" So, under the Modernising Defence Programme we’re looking carefully at our Reserve Forces, with the aim of enhancing national resilience by giving our Armed Forces even more flexibility. As part of that work, we will be testing our arrangements for mobilising large numbers of Reserves. But the need for agility goes beyond the work we do with Reservists and it must be about more than just a single Division.

It is also about the enablers from across the Army, without which the Division would be unable to function. Furthermore, our resilience is founded on our ability to generate a second, follow-on Division to meet the NATO demand signal providing vital wide-area security and stabilisation. "
That it would be possible

But I suppose I’m thinking conventional scenario backs against the wall.

It definitely wouldn’t be possible like for like, you’d be replacing a Armd Inf & Strike Div with a light infantry Div.

Like for like would take years of lead time once the call was sent
 
That it would be possible

But I suppose I’m thinking conventional scenario backs against the wall.

It definitely wouldn’t be possible like for like, you’d be replacing a Armd Inf & Strike Div with a light infantry Div.

Like for like would take years of lead time once the call was sent
The reality mate is 3 Div at the moment is a disparate organisation that can not be considered a functioning Division. In three or four years time it will have the basic building blocks of two Armd Inf Bdes and one or two Strike Bdes.
If you commit them to total conventional war there is a chance the Div will be destroyed as a fighting formation within 24 hours. Not my words this comes from Centre for Historical Analysis and Conflict Research (CHACR), the army's own think tank, which is based at the Royal Military Academy in Sandhurst.

So what would be left? All of the Arty and Engr assets would not cover the requirements of a Div at war and JHF is insufficient before it starts getting shot down.

Day three we look at what we have left, no CR2 Regts, perhaps a couple of Btys of 105 mm Light Guns, 3 Cdo Bde, 16 AA if they weren't in the initial operation and a bunch of light infantry Bdes with precious little Armour or anything else for that matter. Your light div would just be a collection of light infantry Bns, Int, some Sigs, RMP and maybe the odd RLC unit.

Day 4? Screwed.
 
The reality mate is 3 Div at the moment is a disparate organisation that can not be considered a functioning Division. In three or four years time it will have the basic building blocks of two Armd Inf Bdes and one or two Strike Bdes.
If you commit them to total conventional war there is a chance the Div will be destroyed as a fighting formation within 24 hours. Not my words this comes from Centre for Historical Analysis and Conflict Research (CHACR), the army's own think tank, which is based at the Royal Military Academy in Sandhurst.

So what would be left? All of the Arty and Engr assets would not cover the requirements of a Div at war and JHF is insufficient before it starts getting shot down.

Day three we look at what we have left, no CR2 Regts, perhaps a couple of Btys of 105 mm Light Guns, 3 Cdo Bde, 16 AA if they weren't in the initial operation and a bunch of light infantry Bdes with precious little Armour or anything else for that matter. Your light div would just be a collection of light infantry Bns, Int, some Sigs, RMP and maybe the odd RLC unit.

Day 4? Screwed.
That’s my point

So what is the intent with a regenerative follow on Div for NATO?

Is it just a Div HQ ?

Is it a (framework) div HQ with up to a British combat Bde? This is possible under the current plan but a lot of divisional level CS & CSS will have to come from elsewhere.

Or is a fully British only fighting a Div HQ with up to 3 combat Bdes (16 AA, 3 Cdo & a Strike Bdes)? This is possible under the current plan but a lot of divisional level CS & CSS will have to come from elsewhere.
 
That’s my point

So what is the intent with a regenerative follow on Div for NATO?

Is it just a Div HQ ?

Is it a (framework) div HQ with up to a British combat Bde? This is possible under the current plan but a lot of divisional level CS & CSS will have to come from elsewhere.

Or is a fully British only fighting a Div HQ with up to 3 combat Bdes (16 AA, 3 Cdo & a Strike Bdes)? This is possible under the current plan but a lot of divisional level CS & CSS will have to come from elsewhere.
It is all just talk
 
If you commit them to total conventional war there is a chance the Div will be destroyed as a fighting formation within 24 hours.
That's exactly what happened in 1914. Apparently, the number of Staff College qualified officers was only in the hundreds (400ish?) and by Christmas there were rather fewer of them. Now, build a million-man army from scratch, on the back of nearly nothing.

Three years later, it was the most effective combined-arms force that the world had ever seen; that defeated the German Army in the field, and drove them back across their own borders.
 
That's exactly what happened in 1914. Apparently, the number of Staff College qualified officers was only in the hundreds (400ish?) and by Christmas there were rather fewer of them. Now, build a million-man army from scratch, on the back of nearly nothing.

Three years later, it was the most effective combined-arms force that the world had ever seen; that defeated the German Army in the field, and drove them back across their own borders.
They were men, there was an Army's worth of Regular Reservists, an Empire, a million volunteers in 1914 alone and the Territorial Force.

Now we have no troops, few reserves and a bunch of snowflakes.
 

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