FRES 2: The Revenge aka MIV

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer

Cynical

LE
Book Reviewer
Jim Storr ran an interesting field experiment which compared the relative effects of different weapons on instrumented targets, where there was more at stake than "dakka-dakka-get-some-rounds-down". The L110 Minimi did not emerge well from that: it was good at generating noise and empty cases, but rather less effective at putting rounds on, or very near, the target, enough to dissuade them from active hostilities.

But then, way back in 2003 it was being said how "Prior to crossing, we had the ITDU out to 'train the trainer' on the new kit. They were at pains to ensure that we didn't ditch the LSW. Just as well we didn't. The LSWs were excellent weapons which allowed engagements at much longer ranges."

Perish the thought that the British Army is actually pretty poor at basic infantry skill-at-arms...
Hmm. Well FRES remains an abortion so let's do a lap. Herewith my initial £0.005 worth:

1. In latter parts of WW1 Lewis gun teams had many ammunition carriers and if section was (IIRC) about 12 strong. Running low on ammunition in a firefight is not necessarily the fault of the weapon, per se. It may be that people are not carrying enough ammunition, or that there are not enough people to carry ammunition, or that they are unable to assault fast enough.

Of course, an 8 man section with a vehicle can let the wagon carry much of the weight burden. It may be that the FI proved not that GMPG was the wrong section weapon but that light role infantry are obsolete.

2. In the assault is the role of a squad automatic weapon to kill or to suppress? The former is tricky, particularly at night against a well dug in enemy as fall of shot hard to observe and you're shooting at a heat target. The latter just needs rounds close (typically within 1 m) and lots of them. (Aside, modelling suppression is difficult for obvious reasons, and some less obvious ones. e.g. if the targets ears are still ringing from a nearby HE round he won't hear the bullet passing, so it won't frighten him so it won't suppress. Perhaps 1B1T is a better belt than 4B1T?) I have the utmost respect for Jim Storr's work, but he is not always correct.

3. Of course LSW is a better shooting weapon than SA80 as it has a longer barrel and a bipod. But that's not relevant to this discussion.

4. M79 / M203 is relevant, provided of course one has been able to close to a range at which they are likely to be accurate. Cue discussion on merits of WP smoking a position (possibly with legally "unfortunate" side meffecte) or HE chucking some dirt about but little more if if doesn't slip between the overhead cover and the revettment.

5. Basic skill at arms is putting holes in Fig 11 on a range. Arguably that's supremely unrealistic training for anyone other than a sniper.

6. When outside of M79/M203/whatever range belt fed MG are about all a dismounted fire team / section has that might generate supression enough for them to advance. (The same is true if it was mounted in Boxer).

7. Even then, assuming even a less than peer enemy can site in depth, you're going to need somehting (mortarts, IFV if you had such a thing) to suppress depth trench 30m to 50m behind.the one you're assalting. Of course, lots of tracer and the odd crack/thump of the rounds that miss the front trench may chip in a bit there too.

8. While Tommy Atkins lies there feeling a tad exposed, he'll no doubt thank his lucky starts that he is so well equipped and supported.
 
1200RPM would empty an 100 Round magazine in 5 seconds, and go through warriors allocation of 225 30mm in 11.25 seconds.

Slight firepower upgrade that has zero chance of being abused by average squaddie!
Just checking that we are all aware that the 30x113mm round fired by the Venom is somewhat smaller than the 30x170mm round used by Warrior?
You could carry somewhat more of the smaller rounds.

That said, 1200rpm for ground targets would be a bit niche, 200rpm is plenty for most scenarios.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Just checking that we are all aware that the 30x113mm round fired by the Venom is somewhat smaller than the 30x170mm round used by Warrior?
You could carry somewhat more of the smaller rounds.

That said, 1200rpm for ground targets would be a bit niche, 200rpm is plenty for most scenarios.

Unless you feel like emulating the Russian approach to urban counter-insurgency and fancy removing entire floors of high rise buildings
 

TamH70

MIA
Unless you feel like emulating the Russian approach to urban counter-insurgency and fancy removing entire floors of high rise buildings

Worked in Grozny. It took a while, cost too many Russian lives for their taste, but it did work. It made it plain however that their organic table of operations didn't provide enuff dakka, which is why the first iteration of the BMPT-Terminator came into being, as that thing's made for urban warfare.
 

gafkiwi

War Hero
Worked in Grozny. It took a while, cost too many Russian lives for their taste, but it did work. It made it plain however that their organic table of operations didn't provide enuff dakka, which is why the first iteration of the BMPT-Terminator came into being, as that thing's made for urban warfare.
The BMPT seems to be more of an attempt to mitigate poor drills, TTP and command and control. The Russians in Grozny (and now the Iraqi's Mosul and Syrians in general) lost a lot of armor not from lack of fire power but lack combined arms employment. MBT's with out properly integrated Infantry support and IFV's for flank and elevated security/overwatch.
Stacking a lot of weapons one one hull/ in one basket and then sending it into urban environment when you have crap combined arms/TTP's will end up with the same result. The Russians T-15 IFV design seems to be the result of more rational thinking with a better protected heavy IFV with a single 30 or 57mm gun and a couple ATGMs. Strangely enough a similar weapons mix that is standard or becoming the norm for IFV's.
 
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Majorpain

War Hero
Just checking that we are all aware that the 30x113mm round fired by the Venom is somewhat smaller than the 30x170mm round used by Warrior?
You could carry somewhat more of the smaller rounds.

That said, 1200rpm for ground targets would be a bit niche, 200rpm is plenty for most scenarios.
Sure, just a bit of fun! There is however potential mileage in a short 3-5 round burst at high RPM, the venom is electrically fired so it should be pretty easy to do, but I'm not sure what the dispersion would be like when its maxed out.
 
Reality of most battle shooting is that a quick near miss (resulting in suppression) is a good outcome
. . . . and that outcome can only be realised if the firer has the skills and self-discipline to locate the enemy before he pulls the trigger.

This requires training in ancillary skills, practice and (goddamit) self-discipline of an order that our 'modern, most professional infantry' have skimped on since I were nobbut a lad, when ABBA were New.
 
This be the crux of it.

I shall say @Stonker's name three times and he can magically appear to talk about range time(s)... :-D


ETA: Ah, @Bubbles_Barker got there before me. Damn you, screen refreshes.
I was (in all truth) about to post this:
Perish the thought that the British Army is actually pretty poor at basic infantry skill-at-arms...
. . . . on the back of my most recent post in this thread :thumleft:

Am I developing a pattern??
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I was (in all truth) about to post this:

. . . . on the back of my most recent post in this thread :thumleft:

Am I developing a pattern??

Well, we aren't saying you may have mentioned this before, but you may have mentioned this before...



on 1 or 2 occasions
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Well, we aren't saying you may have mentioned this before, but you may have mentioned this before...



on 100 or 200 occasions


Silly me, I forgot the "0"s
 
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. . . . and that outcome can only be realised if the firer has the skills and self-discipline to locate the enemy before he pulls the trigger.

This requires training in ancillary skills, practice and (goddamit) self-discipline of an order that our 'modern, most professional infantry' have skimped on since I were nobbut a lad, when ABBA were New.

Back to the reason why the SLR didn’t fire automatic but some in the Falklands picked up FALs and why they SA80 does also fire automatic?
 

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