FRES 2: The Revenge aka MIV

Some of the problem with both WR and CR2 is that they've been used hard though, isn't it? Hull wear on CR2s has been mentioned previously, as has de-lamination (because of the construction method) of WR hulls.

I agree, by the way - my question about AS90 was all to do with the idea that we've already got 'em, so what would it take/cost to bring 'em up to where we need 'em.
There were plenty of low mileage CR2 being scrapped instead of swapping out for the snagged fleet. Literally the same 80 or so tanks (probably less now considering our tank regts now all share the same hangers designed for 1 regt) get ragged and passed between regiments and BATUS leaving the rest to rot in storage somewhere with a few miles on the clock.
 

gafkiwi

War Hero
There were plenty of low mileage CR2 being scrapped instead of swapping out for the snagged fleet. Literally the same 80 or so tanks (probably less now considering our tank regts now all share the same hangers designed for 1 regt) get ragged and passed between regiments and BATUS leaving the rest to rot in storage somewhere with a few miles on the clock.
Did they do the old "We'll keep these new ones for when we really need them, and wear down and waste out the older worn out hulls" only to decided they didn't like the cost of maintaining and storing perfectly good hulls and wrote them off to save a £ in the short term.
 
Did they do the old "We'll keep these new ones for when we really need them, and wear down and waste out the older worn out hulls" only to decided they didn't like the cost of maintaining and storing perfectly good hulls and wrote them off to save a £ in the short term.
There are certainly CR2 in storage, in CHE no less.
 
Did they do the old "We'll keep these new ones for when we really need them, and wear down and waste out the older worn out hulls" only to decided they didn't like the cost of maintaining and storing perfectly good hulls and wrote them off to save a £ in the short term.
see the Army rebuilding clapped out Landrovers, while new/almost new ones go for disposal through Withams.
 
They are doing the same with MAN 6t trucks. Going through auctions with 2-300km on them, almost as new. So good, we bought one.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
see the Army rebuilding clapped out Landrovers, while new/almost new ones go for disposal through Withams.
They are doing the same with MAN 6t trucks. Going through auctions with 2-300km on them, almost as new. So good, we bought one.
Why, if that's not a stupid question?
Did they do the old "We'll keep these new ones for when we really need them, and wear down and waste out the older worn out hulls" only to decided they didn't like the cost of maintaining and storing perfectly good hulls and wrote them off to save a £ in the short term.
When the Tornado was upgraded to GR.4 standard, the airframes that had had the most modifications already done, and so needed the least done to bring them up to standard, were used. Of course, those with the most modifications were also the ones that had been used hardest. The airframes which ended up getting scrapped were the 'younger' ones.

You wouldn't spend your own money this way.
 
Why, if that's not a stupid question?

You wouldn't spend your own money this way.
I think it was because the MAN truck buy wasn't in synch with the reduction in the size of the Army and an internal drive (geddit?) to reduce the amount of soft skins at 1st Line. This resulted in about 2000 6T MAN needing to be flogged and units not having enough indigenous transport for their own needs.

It takes real effort to spend money this way. And it is your money by the way...
 
I think it was because the MAN truck buy wasn't in synch with the reduction in the size of the Army and an internal drive (geddit?) to reduce the amount of soft skins at 1st Line. This resulted in about 2000 6T MAN needing to be flogged and units not having enough indigenous transport for their own needs.

It takes real effort to spend money this way. And it is your money by the way...
Also way back on the Project Team it was soon apparent 6t was not the drones we were looking for. We should have gone 9t and 15t and be done with it. But when CS and the like said at Andover "we need to replace 4, 8 and 14t trucks then we must surely do a like for like?", they did not take into account that pesky country called Afghanistan would need vehicles with armour and the like bolted to it. To be fair to the 6t it wasn't cut out for all that and they were relegated to the CQMS Bastion runaround.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
Did they do the old "We'll keep these new ones for when we really need them, and wear down and waste out the older worn out hulls" only to decided they didn't like the cost of maintaining and storing perfectly good hulls and wrote them off to save a £ in the short term.
Let me have a go at this getting to the root cause of this one.

The reason is slightly more sinister. The Treasury has a notional "cost of capital charge" (3.5% of total assets a year), which is intended to stop departments hoarding equipment that they never use. The drama is for the MOD the baby goes out with the bathwater, as its much "cheaper" and looks better for the MOD to keep "written off" (as an example) CR2 with 50,000 miles on the clock and gas axe the ones with 100 miles which still have some nominal value. Even though in real terms the only cost is the storage one.

So that's how you end up with perverse incentives making your entire vehicle fleet comprised of the worst kept ones, whilst the newer ones with value are sold off. Financially though it will make the balance sheet look really good!
 
Let me have a go at this getting to the root cause of this one.

The reason is slightly more sinister. The Treasury has a notional "cost of capital charge" (3.5% of total assets a year), which is intended to stop departments hoarding equipment that they never use. The drama is for the MOD the baby goes out with the bathwater, as its much "cheaper" and looks better for the MOD to keep "written off" (as an example) CR2 with 50,000 miles on the clock and gas axe the ones with 100 miles which still have some nominal value. Even though in real terms the only cost is the storage one.

So that's how you end up with perverse incentives making your entire vehicle fleet comprised of the worst kept ones, whilst the newer ones with value are sold off. Financially though it will make the balance sheet look really good!
Do you know how much it costs to store a CR2?

Nope, me neither - but I'll bet it's a lot more than people think.
 
Let me have a go at this getting to the root cause of this one.

The reason is slightly more sinister. The Treasury has a notional "cost of capital charge" (3.5% of total assets a year), which is intended to stop departments hoarding equipment that they never use. The drama is for the MOD the baby goes out with the bathwater, as its much "cheaper" and looks better for the MOD to keep "written off" (as an example) CR2 with 50,000 miles on the clock and gas axe the ones with 100 miles which still have some nominal value. Even though in real terms the only cost is the storage one.

So that's how you end up with perverse incentives making your entire vehicle fleet comprised of the worst kept ones, whilst the newer ones with value are sold off. Financially though it will make the balance sheet look really good!
It's not like the MOD is audited. An aggressive depreciation of equipment on paper can very quickly solve the problem of having better condition kit having a large disparity in carrying value to older assets.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
It's not like the MOD is audited. An aggressive depreciation of equipment on paper can very quickly solve the problem of having better condition kit having a large disparity in carrying value to older assets.
The MOD is most definitely audited, and its is right that it is before taxpayers money gets properly wasted!
 
MOD logic

very expensive specialist laser printer needs a new imaging unit.

how much?

£500

‘we note the printer is over 3 years old’

yes, but it’s still made as its very good at its job.

its beyond economic repair at that age according to our rules, we’ll buy you a new one.

Cheers......

big box arrives, it’s not the same printer

‘hello, it’s the wrong printer Grommit

its our standard one

no good for for what it’s needed for, you said you’d buy a new one

yes, it’s a new standard one.

well....

and so the new printer sits unloved and unused until it’s sold off as surplus to requirements.

to summarise, a £3,500 printer is scrapped, it’s replacement £2,000 one Is flogged off for pennies, and £500 is saved on repairs. And they still keep toners for the old one in stock.
 

gafkiwi

War Hero
So that's how you end up with perverse incentives making your entire vehicle fleet comprised of the worst kept ones, whilst the newer ones with value are sold off. Financially though it will make the balance sheet look really good!
Sounds some what familiar.
 
Do you know how much it costs to store a CR2?

Nope, me neither - but I'll bet it's a lot more than people think.
The last time I was up Ashchurch (it was a fair while ago) many of the CR2 and other bits of expensive bits of equipment were rusting outside, which I am sure is against the security storage instructions for CR2. I'm sure it's cheaper to let them rust inside the wire somewhere else and not bother paying DSG (or who is running it). Hopefully it's been addressed and everything is now stored as it should be. Ashchurch also has an asbestos problem.
 
Well this is all rather depressing....

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The last time I was up Ashchurch (it was a fair while ago) many of the CR2 and other bits of expensive bits of equipment were rusting outside, which I am sure is against the security storage instructions for CR2. I'm sure it's cheaper to let them rust inside the wire somewhere else and not bother paying DSG (or who is running it). Hopefully it's been addressed and everything is now stored as it should be. Ashchurch also has an asbestos problem.
All the CR2 are stored inside, mostly in CHE. If they were outside they were either awaiting issue or about to be put back in a shed.

Ashchurch is being flattened and rebuilt, as it should have been many years ago.
 

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