"Freedom of Speech is a plague" Danish Muslims view...

#1
Got this off the BBC - scary stuff. Has it not occured to the idiots that its not a plot against Islam, but a reaction to their plotting to kill a cartoonist that sparked this current crisis?
Once more Islam demonstrates why it should be outlawed in the 21st century.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7247817.stm
 
#2
jim30 said:
Got this off the BBC - scary stuff. Has it not occured to the idiots that its not a plot against Islam, but a reaction to their plotting to kill a cartoonist that sparked this current crisis?
Once more Islam demonstrates why it should be outlawed in the 21st century.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7247817.stm
Freedom of speech is a plague. Just ask Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, etc. Oddly enough Abu Hamza never complained about it.
Not that I am implying dual standards, but if the turban fits, wear it.
 
#4
Heedthebaw said:
Is this going to be another all Muslims are bad thread? Just checking.......
More of a all idiots/extremists are bad thread I would have thought. It's just that today's idiot extremists from the article are Muslims.
 
#5
Brick said:
More of a all idiots/extremists are bad thread I would have thought. It's just that today's idiot extremists from the article are Muslims.
And yet.....

Once more Islam demonstrates why it should be outlawed in the 21st century.
If we agree that the idiots today happen to be muslims then I think we can agree that the above statement is bone.

Equally I think the "protesters" (whipped up by Hizb ut Tahrir) should shut the feck up. Don't like the fact that Mohammed is depicted in a cartoon? Tough - go somewhere where it is not allowed.
 
#6
I wonder what would happen if the Mony Pythons crew did a "Life of Brian" poking fun as Islam and not the Christians as they did!

And of course on both sides of this devide, there are those who take issue with what to those with Common Sense, see as a bit of harmless fun.

I can't believe we are even having this conversation, perhaps I should change my religion NOT!

Again, it has never been about religion, it is ALL about power and the supression of the masses, look at Communisim and the the idiots in the Third Riche. Set up and pick upon the minority group and make the majority strong.
 
#7
Until recently I would have described myself as a tolerant individual. However the repeated attacks that O have seen on comon sense by individuals who happen to be Muslim has made me realise that Islam as it currently stands is simply incompatible with 21st century life. Any religion that puts a woman in prison and beats her, for the crime of sitting in a family area of a starbucks in Riyadh, while sitting with a colleague is beyond the pale in my book. I simply have no time anymore for those who whine that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and then parade calling for the execution of a woman teacher whose child happened to call a teddy bear Muhammed. I fear the backlash of my countrymen now, as more and more of the silent majority become angrier and angrier at what Muslims are doing worldwide. I genuinely fear that if we do not take strong steps now, we are sleepwalking into a land where the BNP and its deeply unpleasant views are seen as the norm...
 
#8
jim30 said:
Until recently I would have described myself as a tolerant individual. However the repeated attacks that O have seen on comon sense by individuals who happen to be Muslim has made me realise that Islam as it currently stands is simply incompatible with 21st century life. Any religion that puts a woman in prison and beats her, for the crime of sitting in a family area of a starbucks in Riyadh, while sitting with a colleague is beyond the pale in my book. I simply have no time anymore for those who whine that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and then parade calling for the execution of a woman teacher whose child happened to call a teddy bear Muhammed. I fear the backlash of my countrymen now, as more and more of the silent majority become angrier and angrier at what Muslims are doing worldwide. I genuinely fear that if we do not take strong steps now, we are sleepwalking into a land where the BNP and its deeply unpleasant views are seen as the norm...
Is a bit OT, but a friend of mine here in US in going to be a teacher - one the classes you must take is 'Understanding Diversity' - all right, fair enough. But what is taught is that all cultures are equal in value and must be accepted as such. I disagree - for some of the very reasons you mention above.
 
#9
Most of the worlds religions preace Peace and Love, however, as with the way that the words have been written, there are times when in translation the purity of the text is lost.
Again living in the 'Global World', when the PM of India farts, we smell it seconds after!
Tollarance and understanding of others seems to have gone right out of the window, this is only being added to by those with a personal agenda, where power then corrupts and devides communities.
We are ALL members of the so-called human race, one wonders?
Very occasionally someone a bit special comes along, but then othere will cause their death, as those with corrupt power want to keep it.
I have to say that IF I was a Muslim right now, I would be to say the least concerned no matter where I was living, be it a Muslim coutry of here in the West. I would be even more worried IF I was a woman in a Muslim country.
There is much that we could find fault in within Islam and they say tha same about us christians and until we can put our difference aside and find something that binds us together, we will continue to find fault and the division we have at present.
Although I do believe the Danes are right.
It's a bit like fighting a bully, if you don't react, they won't do it, especially if you can isolate them by reasonable means
 
#10
Heedthebaw said:
Brick said:
More of a all idiots/extremists are bad thread I would have thought. It's just that today's idiot extremists from the article are Muslims.
And yet.....

Once more Islam demonstrates why it should be outlawed in the 21st century.

If we agree that the idiots today happen to be muslims then I think we can agree that the above statement is bone.


Equally I think the "protesters" (whipped up by Hizb ut Tahrir) should shut the feck up. Don't like the fact that Mohammed is depicted in a cartoon? Tough - go somewhere where it is not allowed.
Not so much bone as an overreaction.

For years we have told that the people (such as those) linked to in the opening post are a very small % of Islam and the majority of muslims are peaceful people. This is something I have accepted as true for years. Recently it has occured to me that there is precious little evidence for this.

If Christians where to hold such a protest as seen in London a few years ago I would bet that there would be plenty of Christians criticising them. Yet we see no such reaction from moderate muslims making it clear that the extremists do not speak for them. Perhaps that is something you can explain? I can accept that the media in general do not report the views of reasonable people as eagerly as those of extremists but muslims distancing themselves from the nutters is almost unheard of.

Every large Islamic protest that I can recall has been about something that is abhorent to the way I have been brought up and the values that I consider to be good.
 
#11
I've never felt comfortable dealing with any person or organisation that cannot laugh at himself/herself/itself and I'm afraid I have to put Islam in the category of an institution with no sense of humour. Jews, Christians, Sikhs I have found have that ability to laugh at the absurdness that an overzealous adherance to a religion can bring, but I have yet to speak to a Muslim (and I meet and deal with many on a daily basis) who are able to discuss Islam without "going into one" as the they say these days. I personally don't have any deep religious views but I would respect the right of anyone to hold them, just don't demand that I change my way of life just because it doesn't conform with a religion developed and based in the Middle East.
 
#12
KevinB said:
jim30 said:
Until recently I would have described myself as a tolerant individual. However the repeated attacks that O have seen on comon sense by individuals who happen to be Muslim has made me realise that Islam as it currently stands is simply incompatible with 21st century life. Any religion that puts a woman in prison and beats her, for the crime of sitting in a family area of a starbucks in Riyadh, while sitting with a colleague is beyond the pale in my book. I simply have no time anymore for those who whine that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and then parade calling for the execution of a woman teacher whose child happened to call a teddy bear Muhammed. I fear the backlash of my countrymen now, as more and more of the silent majority become angrier and angrier at what Muslims are doing worldwide. I genuinely fear that if we do not take strong steps now, we are sleepwalking into a land where the BNP and its deeply unpleasant views are seen as the norm...
Is a bit OT, but a friend of mine here in US in going to be a teacher - one the classes you must take is 'Understanding Diversity' - all right, fair enough. But what is taught is that all cultures are equal in value and must be accepted as such. I disagree - for some of the very reasons you mention above.
I take it she is not going to be a teacher in Montana or Texas :D
 
#13
In todays news:

"Hundreds of Danish Muslims have been demonstrating in Copenhagen against the reprinting of a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad they consider offensive.

The cartoon depicts the Prophet with a bomb in his turban.

All major Danish newspapers decided to republish it after Danish intelligence said it had uncovered a plot to kill one of the cartoonists.

Protestors marched in the capital's streets shouting "God is Great!" and "Freedom of speech is like a plague!" .

Many carried the black and white flags of Hizb ut-Tahrir - the radical Islamic party that calls for the creation of a caliphate.
 
#14
To condemn the whole of Islam because of the lunatic and utterly un-representative fringe is symptomatic of the appalling racism and Islamophobia that has a grip of the media across Europe and the USA. Apply the same logic and we should ban Christianity on the same grounds if we take these lunatics to be representative of all Christians. I am quite sure that 5 minutes would allow you to call for banning Judaism, Sikhism, Wicca et al.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91136-1200311,00.html
 
#15
Enlightenment said:
To condemn the whole of Islam because of the lunatic and utterly un-representative fringe is symptomatic of the appalling racism and Islamophobia that has a grip of the media across Europe and the USA. Apply the same logic and we should ban Christianity on the same grounds if we take these lunatics to be representative of all Christians. I am quite sure that 5 minutes would allow you to call for banning Judaism, Sikhism, Wicca et al.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91136-1200311,00.html
That would be true if the nutters truly are a very small minority. Do you have any evidence for that?

Islamaphobia implies an irrational fear. Yet almost everything we hear about Islam implies we should fear it. The values of fundamentalist Islam are incompatible with modern western values.

The same does apply to fundy Christians as well but I have seen no evidence that they form a large % of Christians in general and hardly exist at all outside the USA. That church you link to has 150 members, I know there are more daft Christians about but it is hardly a significant minority.

I find it strange that you concentrate on European and USA media as being in the wrong considering cases such as the calls for death on a woman teacher that allowed pupils to name a teddy bear Muhhamed and the death sentence upon the Afghan journalist for downloading info about womens rights. In Saudi women are not allowed to drive and in other muslim states women are not=to men. Yet you are saying it is the west that is unreasonable.
 
#16
Enlightenment said:
To condemn the whole of Islam because of the lunatic and utterly un-representative fringe is symptomatic of the appalling racism and Islamophobia that has a grip of the media across Europe and the USA. Apply the same logic and we should ban Christianity on the same grounds if we take these lunatics to be representative of all Christians. I am quite sure that 5 minutes would allow you to call for banning Judaism, Sikhism, Wicca et al.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91136-1200311,00.html
Oh really. How many is unrepresentative? I assume from your utopia you have the answers us mere mortals are struggling to find so please do tell; we await with (mastur)baited breath :roll:
 
#17
Ok I'll weigh in.

Linky

The Muslim Paliament talking about the "Kill those who insult Islam" protest, and a rally they were planning to counteract the poor publicity.

Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said that no form of extremism would be tolerated at the rally. "The reasons for the really are two-fold. We want to allow peaceful expression of the hurt caused by the publication of the cartoons but we also want to allow people to publicly distance themselves from the extremists because for most of Britain this is the only impression they have of Muslims in this country."

Another Linky says that the Danish Muslims were trying to do damage limitation during the first controversy

Two moderate Danish imams, Fatih Alev and Abdul Wahid Pedersen, defended Danish values in an interview with the Saudi newspaper Arab News, urging for a settlement in the cartoon affair. The imams stressed that Jyllands-Posten, the paper that first published the controversial cartoons, had apologized for offending Muslims, that the Danish press is not under government control, that Muslims in Denmark are generally well treated, and that the boycott of Danish products in the Middle East also harms Danish Muslims. The Danish People’s Party wants to seriously consider the possibility of expelling imams who do not have Danish citizenship and who have harmed Danish interests in the Middle East by feeding the Arab media with false information. The initiative is backed by the Liberal Party (Venstre), the party of Prime Minister Rasmussen.
Even Sistani got in on the act!

Another moderate Muslim voice could be heard in Iraq. On Friday Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the country’s top Shia Muslim cleric, condemned the publication of the cartoons, but added that militant Islamists were partly to blame for distorting the image of Islam. Ayatollah Sistani criticized Muslim extremists for distorting the view of Islam in the West through their violent actions. Ayatollah Sistani is one of the top 3 ayatollahs in Shiadom. [The statement on Sistani’s website is in Arabic only. The English version usually follows a day or two afterwards].
I have to say that these are selective quotes from the first couple of hits I had off google.

I offer them for your consideration. I ask this. Are you failing to hear about these appeals for calm (I certainly didn't when the controversy kicked off) because it doen't suit the editorial policy of the papers / news outlets that have greatest coverage - ie those that aim at the lowest common denominator.

These are old (from the original furore in 06) so there was plenty of time for the calls for moderation to percolate out IMHO.
 
#18
Perturbed said:
That would be true if the nutters truly are a very small minority. Do you have any evidence for that?

Islamaphobia implies an irrational fear. Yet almost everything we hear about Islam implies we should fear it. The values of fundamentalist Islam are incompatible with modern western values.

The same does apply to fundy Christians as well but I have seen no evidence that they form a large % of Christians in general and hardly exist at all outside the USA. That church you link to has 150 members, I know there are more daft Christians about but it is hardly a significant minority.

I find it strange that you concentrate on European and USA media as being in the wrong considering cases such as the calls for death on a woman teacher that allowed pupils to name a teddy bear Muhhamed and the death sentence upon the Afghan journalist for downloading info about womens rights. In Saudi women are not allowed to drive and in other muslim states women are not=to men. Yet you are saying it is the west that is unreasonable.
Perturbed,

No, I have no evidence that the Islamic nutters are a small minority, any more than I have any evidence that they are a majority. I am more than willing to concede that there is a significant minority however. The Westboro Baptist Church is certainly an extreme but tiny minority, on a slightly larger, and to me much more worrying scale, is the fact that a Christian fundamentalist who gives credence to Intelligent Design, has an admittedly diminishing possibility of becoming the President of the USA.

Everything you may hear about Islam may make you fear it - everything I hear of it does not, yet I agree that the values of fundamentalist Islam are incompatible with many of the western values which define our society. I still maintain that there are also significant minorities of fundamentalists from all religions whose values and beliefs are incompatible with Western values, and as I indicated above some of these are very close to seats of real power.

I did not at any point even imply that I believe that the Western Medis is wrong for reporting the more lunatic aspects that occur - which I freely admit beggar belief. I concentrate on the Western media because that is what I am exposed to more than any other - as are you. the editorialisation means that everything you do hear leads you to fear Islam. The whole point of the Western values that we adhere to is that reason should prevail, I feel that on this subject it presently does not. There are huge problems to be overcome - but to ban a religion?

That is unreasonable.
 
#19
Demonstration against cartoon in Denmark: 10,000

Demonstration against bombs in London: 0,000

Most of us would say demonstrating for the reinstatement of blasphemy laws would be viewed as extreme, and demonstrating against terrorism would be viewed as moderate.
 
#20
rickshaw-major said:
Oh really. How many is unrepresentative? I assume from your utopia you have the answers us mere mortals are struggling to find so please do tell; we await with (mastur)baited breath :roll:
My reply to Perturbed talks about reason and its importance to Western values. May I suggest you lay off the strong coffee, put down the (probably shredded) copy of the Daily Mail, read a bit of Condorcet and Rousseau, and reply when you can apply reason.

You seem to be the only mere mortal here at the moment.
 

Latest Threads

Top